Scum mafia: On Cecil pond [Game Over]

[Drain_Bead]

Nowhere in my post did I say that Rysto knew ed was a power role. I said that we NOW know ed was a power role.

[Alka_Seltzer]

@Mahaloth

Good vote? Acceptable Day One vote, anyway. I joined no bandwagon justified it as best as I could.

OK, you didn’t say it was a good vote, you just said ‘not lame’. I think it was a bad vote because you never made a case that peeker was scum. Unfortunately, a lot of anti-town play is not scum motivated.

@Mahaloth - Where do you stand on Scuba Ben right now?

[fluiddruid]

@storyteller0910

Do a search on my posts in this game. It shouldn’t take long; I haven’t been posting much outside of Mafia so you won’t have a lot of unrelated posts to manage. Take a look at the number of posts I’ve made that you - according to whatever your definition might be - consider to be substantive, Scum-hunting posts.

Then conduct the same experiment with fluiddruid.

Funny, I acknowledged this in my posts. But my participation level has no effect on your own. You’re a strong, experienced player who has explicitly stated " I HAVE TRIED TO POST SUBSTANTIVE, SCUM-HUNTING POSTS" when I don’t think you did. I made no such assertion.

Further, I’m simply a different player than you. I don’t tend to post a great deal. I tend to get tagged as scum for not posting enough. I’m not saying that’s good – it’s something I’m trying to work on – but it is consistent. I don’t, personally, view your performance in this game as consistent with what I know of you if I presume you to be Town.

And I think I put a great deal of effort into my case against you. Others can be the judge of that.

It hinges on the esssential assumption that I am wrong in my position and know it. Think about that. The argument only makes sense if I am deliberately promoting an idea that I think is a bad one, because it hinges on what she sees as inconsistencies or flaws in my argument. So if you actually believe that all day yesterDay, I took an unpopular and heat-generating stance for something I don’t believe, then, OK, I guess vote for me.

Wrong. You’re using the same strategy, which is to subtly mis-state what I have said. I said you are promoting an anti-Town idea because you want to reserve the right to use it, or for others to use it, in the future and for Scum benefit. I believe that you know very well that you have presented a skewed case in support of not lysing spawn in order to make Townies fall in line with you on future Days when you will use this as a defense. Further, it allowed you to post a great deal of commentary that was not fluff but was also not accusing others of being scum, which is a side benefit.

As I’ve said, Story, I think you’re aggressive enough of a player to take heat as scum and feel comfortable that you can minimize any case against you. You’ve clearly done so here. You’ve boiled down an extensive case into hand-waving that does not address the meat of the issue.

@Cookies

Before I crawl into fluid’s posts for real, on initial skim she attributed a quote of mine to Drain:

My apologies for that. It was a great deal of material to go through.

[sachertorte]

Oh yeah, two votes
vote Spawn

[Meeko]

@KellyCriterion

This is my first game of Mafia, but I have semi-lurked some of the other Mafia threads.

With all due respect here, I take that to mean that there are a few concepts that you get right away, and a few you didn’t know, you didn’t know?

Noted.

I’m not ready to unvote quite yet.

[Rysto]

@Drain_Bead

Nowhere in my post did I say that Rysto knew ed was a power role. I said that we NOW know ed was a power role.

But why is that relevant to your assertion that I am scum? Accusing me of being scum because I happened to vote for somebody who later on turned out to be a power role is ridiculous. That’s a textbook example of a case where a pro-Town player(or indeed an anti-Town player) can do something that happens to be anti-Town. It’s a null tell.

[Stanislaus]

Ok, I’ve got to dash out of work now so I’ll try to follow this up this evening but for now, here are some posts of Drain Bead’s that I find a little suspicious:

@Drain_Bead

Not to defend peeker, but if someone put words in my mouth that weren’t there, I’d get pretty pissed off too. A lot of special ed’s case is based on peeker’s reaction to zeriel’s initial misstatement. peeker’s confusion is understandable, given the circumstances.

I have no particular dog in this fight. ed’s case is well-supported, and if peeker is who he says he is, we’re not risking any power roles by lynching him toDay, so that’s about as good as a bad thing can be, I suppose. I much prefer a Day One vanilla lynch to a long cascade of power role claims, if lynch a Pondie on Day One we must. But in the end, I’m just not feeling the peeker lynch so far toDay, so I won’t be voting for him unless he does something even nuttier. Which, I suppose, given who we’re talking about, is quite possible.

1. “peeker’s confusion is understandable given the circumstances” doesn’t jibe with “ed’s case is well supported”.
2. This whole post reads as equivocation - “there’s a good case against peeker, but I’m not convinced by it, but we might as well go ahead and lynch him”

@Drain_Bead

I don’t think the fluiddruid case is going anywhere toDay, but I don’t particularly like the cases against the two lynch leaders at this point. If I had to choose between the two, I’d probably choose Scuba Ben, because I’m perplexed at the lack of any real defense.

The bolded portion sets off alarm bells. Why care whether the case is “going anywhere”? Why would you have to vote for one of the lynch leaders? Town shouldn’t judge the value of their vote on whether or not it’s starting a wagon.

@Drain_Bead

So I read the post that story was alluding to, and while I can sort of see where he’s coming from, the more problematic portion of it had nothing to do with his reasoning for the vote on Freudian. It’s his approach to fluiddruid.

Here’s my issue. Why are both peeker and fluid unlikely to be Scum? … So the whole basis of your analysis here goes to hell because it begins with an unfounded assumption…

So basically, your entire justification for putting fluid in the Town/PFK pile is even more flimsy than your reasoning for voting Freudian, and in fact more flimsy than her vote on peeker was. I really don’t understand why you’re making umpteen levels of assumptions. If we were further into the game, I’d consider this to be a poorly-made breadcrumb, but on Day One there’s no way that I can see that you could legitimately get to where you went with this.

Amazingly, this post walks right up to the line of accusing story of PIS. (I’ve snipped, but read the whole thing.) PIS of course being a scum tell. At best, this doesn’t fit well with the vote on Rysto.

I’m now late, so

vote Drain Bead

[Mahaloth]

@sachertorte

(1) Why say your vote is more justified than other votes on peekercpa? Do you really think this? Why did you say it?

(2) Mahaloth correctly indicates that he didn’t join a bandwagon, but he certainly helped create it.
.

1. Because it wasn’t a bandwagon jump-on(which some were).

2. I didn’t help create a bandwagon. No one had to vote with me. How did I help create a bandwagon? Did I motivate peeker to react the way he did, which led to further votes?

I can respect that you didn’t like my points. But you should not suggest that I helped create a bandwagon. That just isn’t true.

[Mahaloth]

Oh, I snipped part of sacher’s quotes.

[storyteller0910]

You’re a strong, experienced player who has explicitly stated " I HAVE TRIED TO POST SUBSTANTIVE, SCUM-HUNTING POSTS" when I don’t think you did.

And I am saying that you are lying about that. I did. There is freely available evidence of this, which I am happy to allow others to find on their own if they’re buying your argument.

I don’t, personally, view your performance in this game as consistent with what I know of you if I presume you to be Town.

You know, I don’t know if you’re Town or your Scum, but this thing? This, “oh, so-and-so is not playing the way they usually play?” This thing never works. You’ve played with me all of what, twice? On that basis you have a strong enough sense of my playstyle that you’re comfortable judging that it’s changed in one Day’s worth of posts?

And I think I put a great deal of effort into my case against you. Others can be the judge of that.

Effort is lovely. What does that have to do with anything?

Wrong. You’re using the same strategy, which is to subtly mis-state what I have said. I said you are promoting an anti-Town idea because you want to reserve the right to use it, or for others to use it, in the future and for Scum benefit.

Which, again, assumes that I secretly believe that it is an anti-Town idea. Which is what I just said. I am not mis-stating anything. You are implying that I am presenting an idea as Town when I “know” it to be anti-Town. Correct?

[Alka_Seltzer]

@Drain_Bead

Late, one-off vote on someone we now know was a Town power role, probably a Mason.

This can be read two ways. Underlining the reasons for the vote:

@Drain_Bead

Late, one-off vote on someone we now know was a Town power role, probably a Mason.

or

@Drain_Bead

Late, one-off vote on someone we now know was a Town power role, probably a Mason.

I don’t see any reason to assume Drain meant the latter.

On PIS attacks, I’ve seen scum on town, and town on town, but I haven’t played in a game where town nailed scum with one. The potential is there, I’ve seen scum make genuine slips when I’ve been spoiled in, but I’d be reluctant to place a vote on the basis of PIS alone.

[fluiddruid]

@storyteller0910

And I am saying that you are lying about that. I did. There is freely available evidence of this, which I am happy to allow others to find on their own if they’re buying your argument.

I went through each of your posts in my own posts above. People can search the thread if they feel that I’m leaving a bunch of stuff out. I’m not.

The vast majority of your posts are regarding double-lysing. This is not in dispute. You then stonewalled against further discussion, purportedly to find scum. I don’t find a lot of evidence, in your posts, that you did. To me, reading your posts one after the other, you put a great deal more effort into discussing that strategy than in your vote and in your analysis of others’ votes. I guess the question to me, then, is why?

You know, I don’t know if you’re Town or your Scum, but this thing? This, “oh, so-and-so is not playing the way they usually play?” This thing never works.

I think it would be unfair to consider your posts with the same weight as Kelly’s or anyone else’s.

I am going based on your extensive experience and your own espousal – in this game – of playing aggressively. Your words and your actions do not, in my mind, match up. I could accept this from a newbie. I cannot accept this from you.

You’ve played with me all of what, twice? On that basis you have a strong enough sense of my playstyle that you’re comfortable judging that it’s changed in one Day’s worth of posts?

I feel comfortable saying that your posts do not reflect aggressive Town play, as you’ve espoused – in this game – of playing, and I feel comfortable that your arguments do not stand up to the level of scrutiny which I would hold a player as experienced as you. This is my opinion. I invite others to read your posts neutrally and see which way they skew.

Effort is lovely. What does that have to do with anything?

Well, you asked. You are the one who said I can’t be taken seriously because you believe that I can’t criticize your claim that you largely abandoned your discussion of this strategy because of my own posting patterns. You attacked the messenger, so I responded.

Which, again, assumes that I secretly believe that it is an anti-Town idea. Which is what I just said. I am not mis-stating anything. You are implying that I am presenting an idea as Town when I “know” it to be anti-Town. Correct?

I believe that you espoused using this strategy on the first Day of the game despite it to being to Town’s disadvantage. Yes, my case against you is, in part, based on my belief that this is intentional.

Is double-lysing players always a bad idea? Clearly, no. Could a case be made against vote restrictions or unanimity? Absolutely. Could a pro-town case have been made for double-lysing players on the first day? Possibly, though I doubt it. But the issue is not only the argument that you made but the disingenuous way in which you defended it. You consistently minimized the Town disadvantages of your plan, and consistently espoused the potential positive outcomes with no consideration of their actual likelihood to occur. My feeling is that this is incredibly suspicious.

What you said was: " So if you actually believe that all day yesterDay, I took an unpopular and heat-generating stance for something I don’t believe, then, OK, I guess vote for me." That’s completely mis-stating my case, and you know it. You and I both know that wrong strategy does not mean a scum tell by necessity. The devil here is in the details. It is not just that you espouse an argument that I do not believe is a good one. It is the manner in which you did so, in my opinion, is ungenuine.

I believe you are a strong enough player to manipulate the discussion in order to give plausible deniability to scum manipulating the vote and, possibly, to encourage townies to double-vote players in order to make this easier.

[Zeriel]

@Alka_Seltzer

I don’t see any reason to assume Drain meant the latter.

Then why include it? It feels like a subtle swipe she can back off from to me.

On PIS attacks, I’ve seen scum on town, and town on town, but I haven’t played in a game where town nailed scum with one. The potential is there, I’ve seen scum make genuine slips when I’ve been spoiled in, but I’d be reluctant to place a vote on the basis of PIS alone.

Last few games I’ve played, both as town and as scum, it seems like we catch at least one scum each game due to PIS.

[Meeko]

Unvote Kelly

Now that I have Unvoted someone with an experience level closer to mine than the field, I feel I can ask the following :

**What PIS is everyone talking about? **

The only one I thought I saw, that came way earlier, was hedged left right and center, and was defended by saying it was misinterpreted. Is this the same one?

A PIS by scum is a good thing to have. I can’t begin to decide my own vote for it, if I don’t even know one exists. I’m sure someone will show me the PIS, and throw in their own suggestion on voting.

Can someone throw me a bone here? I would go so far as to say the PIS didn’t even happen, and that it has been inflated.

[storyteller0910]

@fluiddruid

What you said was: " So if you actually believe that all day yesterDay, I took an unpopular and heat-generating stance for something I don’t believe, then, OK, I guess vote for me." That’s completely mis-stating my case, and you know it. You and I both know that wrong strategy does not mean a scum tell by necessity. The devil here is in the details. It is not just that you espouse an argument that I do not believe is a good one. It is the manner in which you did so, in my opinion, is ungenuine.

And by “ungenuine,” you mean that I don’t believe it, right?

Are we speaking a different language here? I mean, you’re putting my words there, then saying the same thing, then saying that they’re not the same thing. You believe that I argued in favor of something that I do not genuinely believe is pro-Town. True or false?

[Chronos]

Vote total:
Spawn 11
Drain Bead 3
KellyCriterion 2
Rysto 2
Mahaloth 2
storyteller0910 1

[del]1: special ed[/del]
2: ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies – Spawn (727)
3: Drain Bead – Spawn (737), Rysto (785)
4: Oredigger77 – Spawn (717)
5: storyteller0910
6: Meeko – Spawn (715), [del]KellyCriterion[/del] (824-874)
7: Mahaloth – Spawn (721), KellyCriterion (778)
8: Freudian Slit – Spawn (718), Rysto (802)
9: USCDiver – Spawn (749)
10: Alka Seltzer – Spawn (821)
[del]11: peekercpa[/del]
12: Natlaw
13: Zeriel – Drain Bead (796), KellyCriterion (796)
14: DiggitCamara – Drain Bead (795)
15: amrussell – Drain Bead (867)
16: KellyCriterion – Spawn (740), Mahaloth (838)
17: Scuba_Ben
18: sachertorte – Mahaloth (860), Spawn (864)
19: fluiddruid – Spawn (804), storyteller (851)
20: TexCat – Spawn (722)
21: Rysto

Quoth Alka Seltzer:

His [Scuba’s] account hasn’t been active since the 2nd Feb, a mod-kill looks quite likely.

Just to clarify: This is still Summer 2. If Scuba remains inactive until the end of the Summer, I will attempt to replace him, not to kill him. Inactivity on any future Summer, or if I can’t find a replacement, will result in a mod-kill.

[Natlaw]

@Drain_Bead

What I really find odd is the fact that NONE of the attention that got Scuba Ben to within one vote of being lynched has transferred to toDay.

It has (for me at least) a lot to do with him being genuinely away instead of trying to dodge a case against him.

Looking back, special ed did make quite an extensive defense of Scuba_Ben when the vote was seven peeker - six Scuba. So the it definitely looks a though they are both Masons, with ed trying to defend his fellow who wasn’t there to do it himself. Enough of a reason for scum to kill ed anyway.

Rysto picked it up immediately:

@Rysto

I think that you’re lying. I think that you slipped into Perfect Information Syndrome and accidentally revealed that you know that Scuba is Town. I called you on it immediately and you had to offer some kind of response, but your explanation doesn’t match your own words from the very same post in which you slipped.

Vote special ed

Today he explains more:

@Rysto

You really didn’t understand my point at all, did you? The problem I had was that ed made a completely baseless assumption at the start. In my experience, that usually happens because the player has secret knowledge to back up the assumption. When a player assumes that another is Town, especially on Day One, the most likely reason for that assumption is that player is scum and knows that other player is Town.

The other less likely reason would be that the both town and mason but this goes unmentioned by Rysto even after the ‘communal organism’ reveal Today.

He also warns us:

@Rysto

This is exactly the kind of speculation that sach warned us against. Why are you trying to work out who the masons are? Let them be!

Was Rysto able to pick on ed suppose PIS because he had the advantage that he knew but ed and Scuba are town? Note this requires the assumption that Scuba is town perhaps mason.

Or is he trying to backpedal on his discovery Today realizing he might have pointed out a mason for scum and is trying to keep Scuba under the covers?

I’m leaning towards the latter: I would think town is focused on finding scum and wants to point that out, while scum is trying to find power roles to make a quiet note who to kill. Of course meanwhile they are trying to be as good town as possible.

[Alka_Seltzer]

@Chronos

Quoth Alka Seltzer:Just to clarify: This is still Summer 2. If Scuba remains inactive until the end of the Summer, I will attempt to replace him, not to kill him. Inactivity on any future Summer, or if I can’t find a replacement, will result in a mod-kill.

Thanks for clearing that up Chronos.

[Drain_Bead]

Just because you guys are barking up the wrong tree.

I am a Communal Organism. Just like ed. The complete lack of counterclaim at this point will confirm me. That should let you know a number of things, actually. I will not confirm or deny Scuba Ben at this point. That issue can be dealt with later.

[Stanislaus]

Shag.

unvote Drain Bead

I thought I was doing so well.