I think that both Kelly and Story have Slipped.
Kelly on asking Chronos if he can PM him.
Story on:
I think we are at the time where we need to cash in the fact that we have voted Spawn every Summer.
Untill I get more Answers or Information:
Unvote Spawn
Vote Storyteller
And that is not a guarantee I will unvote.
Sorry, can someone define crossburning?
When two scum try to throw each other under the bus. Drain bussed you in Colorless, if you had bussed her back, it would be cross bussing. AKA scum fight. See Meeko v Special Ed in Conspiracy 3, Day 1.
@texcat: IMO, storyteller vigging you would be more scummy than storyteller not vigging you. Also, just to put this on the record, your claim of vanilla under no pressure is suspicious. Also you’re story-vig-you plan was so full of obvious flaws, to border on the ridiculous. The fact that you’re using it as part of your case against story is actually scummy.
What is the “lying since the first summer” in reference to (or was that just a meaningless smudge)?
**
unvote KellyCriterion
vote TexCat**
@meeko: IMO, It would be worse for town if he (story) had vigged. What is the “Slip” that you are referring to? What exact post / phrasing is a slip, also if there is any ambiguity that you percieve in the possible slip, can you please clarify your reasoning as to why it is a slip?
Thanks, Red.
I agree that vigging a known townie would have been a bad idea. I’m not necessarily convinced story is vig either, but I don’t think needlessly shooting off in the crowd is a great idea.
Why do you think that TexCat qualifies as a known townie?
Vote count:
Spawn 6
KellyCriterion 3
Storyteller0910 2
DiggitCamara 1
Rysto 1
TexCat 1
[del]1: special_ed[/del]
[del]2: ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies[/del]
3: Drain Bead – KellyCriterion (1343), Spawn (1343)
4: Oredigger77
5: storyteller0910 – Rysto (1356)
6: Meeko – KellyCriterion (1342), [del]Spawn[/del] (1342-1361), Storyteller (1361)
[del]7: Mahaloth [/del]
8: Freudian Slit – KellyCriterion (1345), Spawn (1345)
9: USCDiver
10: Alka Seltzer
[del]11: peekercpa[/del]
12: Natlaw
[del]13: Zeriel[/del]
14: DiggitCamara
15: amrussell
16: KellyCriterion – Spawn (1350)
17: Red Skeezix – [del]KellyCriterion[/del] (1344-1363), Spawn (1344), TexCat (1363)
18: sachertorte
[del]19: fluiddruid[/del]
20: TexCat – Storyteller (1360), Spawn (1360)
21: Rysto – DiggitCamara (1341), Spawn (1341)
I am going to try this. This part before the quote box is after I have typed the rest.
To everyone, this is not as compact as I Would like, I hope you guys understand my points. Please ask questions.
Skeezix, after you have read this, please let me know if you need anything else from me. My questions might come off as devils advocate, or being a dick. But, I think they will either help me understand some ““Truths”” of the game [It is VT’s objective to die] or, alternately, we can begin to re-evaluate some of the standard mafia theory. There are a few things I still do not believe in Mafia, and I believe I get to at least one of them below.
I don’t see how it is “Scummy” to vig a Townie that volunteers to stick out and take one.
**
After all, and not that I personally buy into the premise, but isn’t it town’s job to die? **
The point remains, we have yet to have a Vig kill. The information we would have gained would have made up for the town loss. The fact that we have no vig kill is good on the stupid simple math, and is good further, because I think we are are as close as we are going to get to verifying if Story is or is not Vig.
I am going to try this. I would love feedback.
Truth Table:
We now know that Mahaloth was Town. We do not know about Kelly. :
Assume Kelly is Town:
… And Assume Story is town:
There would be no need to vote Rysto because of it. Rysto does not know any better, and Story would not know any better. Because no one would know any better, there would be no call to action, no reaction, no reflex here to vote Rysto.
Assume Kelly is Town:
…And Assume Story is Scum:
Story flat out would not care if a Town Kelly, or a Town Mahaloth gets lynched. Hence, a scummy Story would not stick out his neck here. But he did.
Assume Kelly is Scum
… And Assume Story is Town
Story would not know the alignment of Mahaloth or of Kelly. As for the first case, there would be no need for the last minute vote to save Scum Kelly, AND no Reactionary, Lightning fast [Relative term] vote on Rysto.
Assume Kelly is Scum
… And Assume Story is Scum :
Then the intent of Story’s post is clear. I am going to vote a Townie Rysto, because he is getting to close to comfort on voting my scum mate Kelly. I am going to nip this in the bud today.
And of course, The timing of Stories Mahaloth vote, and his Rysto vote would also click in as well.
To say nothing of the slips.
I so do not get the Rysto vote here. It REEKS of scum finding anything to fabricate a case on.
How does this case hold water, given that Kelly is still with us?
And again, why would Pond care?
**
Since when does “I will vote to make a tie” surpass an actual reason?**
I mean, Scum care only for numbers, they could care less for a case. Scum only need numbers on their side, they don’t have to make up a case.
Add to this, the timing.
Scum want to kill town. Town want to kill scum. For town to **deliberately **kill town is self-destructive.
There are of course **rare **occasions where people might deviate from the above. For example, we know that it will sometimes be in scum’s interest to lynch scum, because it can gain the surviving scum credibility. This helps them achieve their team win condition.
It is more difficult to imagine a scenario where town deliberately killing town advances their win condition. TexCat’s proposal was that we sacrifice one of the town in exchange for confirming another member. Even on its face, it’s not clear to me that this represents a net gain for town. There is some value in having confirmed members, but there is also value in having as many of us as possible alive. More to the point, I really don’t see how TexCat’s proposal would have actually confirmed story.
Assume that we began this season with the information that Cookies, a Plankton had died - and that **TexCat *had died but we did not know his alignment. What does this actually tell us about story? It might confirm the nature of his power, but there is absolutely nothing in that info to say whether he’s Pond, Scum or Other. All that’s happened is that we’re down one Pond. Killing **TexCat **under those circumstances would have advanced the scum win condition, but done nothing to achieve the Pond’s.
*For illustrative purposes, I’m assuming in this post that TexCat is town as soft-claimed.
Maybe you could check upthread for the 800 reasons given for why that would be a bad idea for him to do if he were telling the truth. His refusal to vig tells us nothing about his alignment, as I’d not vig if I were in his situation.
A bad vote is a bad vote, regardless of who the vote is for. Rysto’s vote was (partially) responsible for moving Kelly Criterion briefly into the lead over Mahaloth. At the time, Kelly was unclaimed and absent, Mahaloth had already claimed vanilla, and it was very close to the end of the Day. Consider: if Rysto was Town, he had no way of knowing (for sure) Kelly Criterion’s alignment. If Kelly turned/turns out to be a power role, we’d have last-minute lynched a power role without giving him a chance to claim. I think this would be highly consistent with Scum motivation if Kelly is Town at all, because it basically allows the Scum to substitute a potentially higher-value target (unclaimed Kelly) for a lower-value target (Mahaloth), and at worst force one more role claim.
Even if Kelly is Scum, though, a Town Rysto doesn’t know it and I would expect a Town Rysto to be extremely cautious regarding a late switch like the one he helped facilitate. His actual vote - extremely short on any kind of substantive reason - was not reflective of a cautious mindset.
So I consider Rysto suspicious for that vote regardless of the alignment of Kelly Criterion.
General sentiment echosed by Texcat.
I covered this at length. But in my effort to be more pleasant and accommodating, I’ll do it yet again: I will not Vig, except in some dramatically specific circumstances that have not yet arisen. I am generally opposed in principle to even a conventional Vig killing if (s)he can avoid it, and in a case like this, am firmly opposed to it. Vigging wouldn’t prove my alignment. Even if it would, the Pond wouldn’t know the results. Did I miss and kill a Detective? Guess we’ll never know. Did I get Scum? We don’t get to find out, so all the useful analysis that comes from a vote record is compromised. I am not going to Vig to satisfy your curiosity. If you lynch me for it, that’s your nevermind, but be advised that it’s terrible play.
Do the Scum have a redirector? What’s that you say? You don’t know? Neither do I. Could Texcat be a Scum Bomb of some sort, designed to trap a Vig? What? You don’t know? Me neither.
I don’t know why this is so difficult for you. I will say it in a single sentence, underlined: if I kill, you will not gain any information other than that I can kill. You will not learn my alignment and you will learn nothing about my target.
Here, at least, you are correct. Even if I kill, you will not receive verification; I could easily be a Serial Killer. You can’t verify me. However, the inability to verify something does not constitute evidence that the thing is false.
Also, you use a definition for the word “slip” that doesn’t make any sense to me. Asking if the vote was tied was… a slip? Really? A slip revealing… what? I wanted to make sure I was correct before I proceeded on the assumption that I was.
Directed at Freudian Slit:
Seconded. Why do you think that?
I’m with Nat, Alka’s vote made no sense. In light of his previously questionable activities and that he used a last minute vote with questionable reasoning to lynch a townie I think it’s a good place to start the Day with my vote.
Vote Alka Seltzer
Vote Spawn
Alrighty.
Apologies for not doing this sooner. Up until the end of the last Day, I thought “plankton” and “town” were the same thing. I thought Chronos had just “ponded up” some of the words used in other Mafia games. I have only just now realised, for example, that special_ed was town, but not plankton. Plankton is a role (much like a “power role” is a role). Town is not a role, town is an alignment. I now appreciate the important difference.
All the talk about Mahaloth “role claiming” and why didn’t I “role claim” towards the end of last summer wasn’t making sense to me when I re-read it. I thought the request being made was merely to state whether we were town or scum. (As in, I was thinking, WTF? Wouldn’t we all claim to be town, regardless of whether we were town or scum?)
Apologies if this has let the town down… but I don’t think I have been playing my “role” properly. I’m town-aligned, but my role is not plankton; my role is that of a rotifier.
I have searched the mafia wiki and can find no trace of what this role is, but each summer I am getting PM’d the name of a player (this is happening in relation to my role), but I don’t know what the significance of the names are.
I have been secretive about my role because I thought it was my own secret thing to figure out, and help me survive. I didn’t realise that it would probably benefit the town if I shared my role, and importantly, take that opportunity while still alive, (ohhhhh… so that’s why you want those about to be lynched to “role claim”… :smack:)
So, my questions are:
I’m about to go to sleep but I will try and check back first thing in the morning. Please all let me know what you’d like me to do. I’ll wait until a few responses have appeared to minimise the chance that I take advice from a scum-aligned player.
Before I get into last night’s goings-on, which I think are rich in info if we can untangle it, I want to pick up something that’s been on my to-do list: a review of Red Skeezix. I was the first person to suspect Scuba so I feel ought to take a look at Red now he’s been in the game for a couple of Seasons.
Starting at the very beginning, the first point to bear in mind is that if he were replacing scum, a Winter start would mean that he could be bought up to date by his teammates rather than plunge in unbriefed. I mention this because my first thought was to look for any changes in focus or playstyle in his second Summer, but I belatedly realised that nothing’s ever that easy.
Red’s main involvement has been his suspicion of KellyCriterion. His first post was an FOS based on Kelly’s “not racing to an early vote for a townie” comment. He also had questions for Meeko and Alka, and laid out his postion against double-lysing.
The FOS on Kelly led to some back and forth, ultimately culminating in a vote, of which more later. Before that, Red had some questions for story about his claim, and challenged Natlaw over voting for two players while others voted for spawn. He votes Natlaw in his next post, but will retract this when it’s pointed out he’d confused Natlaw’s posts with USCDiver’s.
He argues against TexCat’s suggestion to have story vig him, both TexCat and with Meeko.
Then we come to his voteagainst Kelly based on, “a combination of OMGUS, over-defensive play, and lack of a meaningful case from you for 3 days running”. This gets Red into a conversation with sachertorte, who doesn’t see Kelly’s play as defensive, and storyteller, who questions whether over-defensiveness is a scum tell.
That ends the Summer. This Summer we have a pivoted vote count (helpful, ta), an explanation of cross-bussing and a query for Freudian over her statement that TexCat is a known townie.
In summary: there’s no obviously pro-scum/anti-town behaviour and he’s mixing strategy discussion with votes and cases. He was adamant about Kelly yesterDay, but not to the extent of ignoring other cases. If I’m being super-suspicious I could say that he seems a little too clean, but that’s paranoia. So without anything to point the other way, I’m tentatively leaning town.
A few questions:
NOTE: If you DO know why you receive the names, or if you DO have input, don’t feel compelled to tell us any more detail than “yes.”
I wouldn’t reveal the names until we’ve discussed this a bit more.
FWIW :
Main Entry: ro·ti·fer
Pronunciation: \ˈrō-tə-fər
Function: noun
Etymology: ultimately from Latin rota + -fer
Date: 1793
: any of a class (Rotifera of the phylum Aschelminthes) of minute usually microscopic but many-celled chiefly freshwater aquatic invertebrates having the anterior end modified into a retractile disk bearing circles of strong cilia that often give the appearance of rapidly revolving wheels
And having posted that, I see there’s something new on the table.
Kelly, we’re going to need a **lot **more information than you’ve given us. Why do you get sent people’s names? “In relation to your role” we could guess - what specifically about your role means you get sent names?
You say you get a name each summer, but there have been three summers and you have only two names. Can I ask which summer didn’t get you a name?
Further, FWIW :
Kelly, You are claiming a Power Role now, correct? That is, you are saying you are not Plankton.
Unvote Kelly
Vote Spawn
This entire Rotifer thing, for the time being at least, is exactly what I was getting at, when I Asked if you wanted to Magic Bag something.
If you reveal players as Plankton, the scum can avoid killing then to get a better chance to hit a power role. If something else, you might out a power role but it might also be a scum role.
I would ask these questions at Chronos if not already spelled out in your role PM. You don’t have to reveal the answers publicly if you think it would help scum more to know this than town.
-Why only two results in three Summers?
-You don’t pick the target you get the name of but get a random name or is some specifics involved which player you get a result on?
-You do only get a role name and not alignment (town/scum)? You do get which player has which role name or just a role name that is in the game?
I was leaning towards Dick as well, for Kelly.
Didn’t Drain say he was with Ed?
Can we use Drain to confirm Kelly?
From Wiki on Rotifer::
Rotifers play an important part of the freshwater zooplankton, being a major foodsource and with many species also contributing to the decomposition of soil organic matter.