Here’s the case, for those of you who don’t want to have to try and dig this up.
Nothing has changed. I still think story’s claim is suspicious. I still don’t understand why he was so reluctant to tell the pond about the “drawback”. How did knowing about the “drawback” hurt story’s abilities or hurt the pond?
Since you’ve posted, I won’t remove you from the game involuntarily, but I can still modkill you, if you think that’s best. Otherwise, I guess you’ll just be really quiet for a Summer.
Are you telling me that you weren’t able to realize that your hidden mason was sitting in a tiny pool, and that when I pointed it out it was news to you? You didn’t realize that Freudian was sitting in a pool of four? (Freudian Slit, Oredigger, Alka Seltzer and me).
For what reason would scum point out that Masons are exposed? Don’t you think that would be a bit of information better shared in the scum thread?
Did it ever occur to you that pointing out the obvious might be a good idea to allow others to piece together the not-so-obvious?
If you are so certain that a group of several scum could be so blind as to not see that a simple vote count points out who the remaining masons might be, did it occur to you that maybe Freudian Slit might not have realized the danger she was in?
Did it occur to you that when KellyCriterion was certainly going to be lynched, that Freudian Slit could have claimed?
Did you notice that I was one of the people who had not voted nor been voted by you or Meeko (or at least until you so helpfully pointed out that I wasn’t a mason by voting for me)? And that I was trying to get nightkilled? Or did you simply not care that by voting for me you reduced the hiding spots for Freudian Slit?
Did you notice that several players (not just me) have opined on the fact that a detective should strongly consider claiming?
Did you notice that my point was that my expectation was that a detective would counter-claim a false detective claim? This was reasoning for believing KellyCriterion’s claim. I even indirectly alluded to the fact that if KellyCriterion’s claim was false, that it would be exposed eventually. I’m pretty sure I never explicitly asked the detective to claim. I will state that it was (and is) my opinion that a detective should have counter-claimed KellyCriterion. That’s my opinion and I’m entitled to stating my thoughts. Moreover, I’m doing my job by telling you all exactly what I think. Don’t you think everyone should be doing that?
Do you realize that my expectation is now that we don’t have a detective at all? That is, I still expect a detective to have counter-claimed KellyCriterion and the fact that we didn’t see one, makes me think we don’t have one.
Time for the excitement of game-state analysis. Thirteen remain. Claims to date are listed in red.
1: Drain Bead - Mason
2: Oredigger77
3: storyteller0910 - Vigilante
4: Meeko - Mason
5: Freudian Slit
6: USCDiver
7: Alka Seltzer
8: DiggitCamara
9: amrussell
10: Red Skeezix
11: sachertorte
12: TexCat - [color=red]Vanilla[color]
13: Rysto
A few observations. First, balance issues. Using JSexton’s balance-by-point system as a way to get a rough estimate as to the balance, four Masons at 3 points each makes 12 points. My role is probably not worth the 2.5 usually given to a non-compulsory Vig, because of the drawback, but it’s definitely worth more than a vanilla or compulsory Vig, so say 2.5 points. That’s 14.5 pro-Town points that we know about (well, that I know about; the rest of you are unsure whether I’m lying). If we have no further power roles in the pool, at all, and if there were four vanilla Scum to start with, that’d be Town = 14.5 + 12 = 26.5, and Scum = 4 x 4.5 = 18. Grossly imbalanced toward Town. A roleblocker seems unlikely in this imagined set-up, since he’d have to deal only with me. If we had five Scum to begin, all vanilla, then the balance is Town = 14.5 + 11 = 25.5, and Scum 4.5 x 5 = 22.5. With six initial vanilla Scum, it’d have been 14.5 + 10 = 24.5 and 4.5 x 6 = 27.
My conclusion - we’re likely to have either no additional power roles, or else a minimum of six Scum to start the game.
If the former, we probably had five Scum to start and four Scum left right now (so it’s 9-4, leaving us two “safe” mislynches assuming I do not kill at all and the Scum kill once per Night).
If the latter, then we have five Scum right now, so it’s 8-5, and we have a fairly small margin of error.
If there is a Detective of even a very weak variety, (s)he should unquestionably claim now. But five vanilla Scum vs. four Masons, a crippled Vig, and an army of vanilla Townies seems to make the most sense balance-wise, so we need to recognize that this may, indeed, be what we are faced with.
Yeah, when I saw that there were four masons, I was pretty shocked. I’ve been trying to do a game balance with a large mason group, and in order to do it I basically have to make a huge Town and give the Scum a lot of powers. I was really surprised to see a four-mason group in a game this small.
And sachertorte, if you were trying to get nightkilled as a non-Mason, and you think the Scum definitely would have seen what you did, you would not have said anything at all in the thread. By saying something, you drew attention to it, and did it in such a way that you set the Masons against you immediately. If you’re going to try to get yourself nightkilled, setting yourself apart from the actual Masons was not the way to do it. If, like you believe, the Scum already knew what you knew, the best thing to do was to remain silent and hope they hit you and not someone else. It would have been a better plan, seeing as both Meeko and I had been agreeing with you the entire time.
Possibly. But I had no idea you would react the way you did. Perhaps I should have thought it was a possibility, but I didn’t think pointing out something so obvious would have made you vote for me. Hell, your chastizing me without voting for me would have been awesome. I was trying to project a desperate attempt to not look mason by doing something a mason wouldn’t do in reaction to being outed. Also, I must admit, there was the annoyance factor, which I shouldn’t have let affect me, but to be truthful, it did.
If I could change something from yesterday it would be to have reacted to your votes very differently. I should have tried to be nonchalant about them in an effort to make it seem like you were voting for me to protect me. That would have been more wise on my part.
Vote count:
Spawn 3
sachertorte 2
DiggitCamara 1
Storyteller0910 1
[del]1: special_ed[/del]
[del]2: ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies[/del]
3: Drain Bead – sachertorte (1577)
4: Oredigger77
5: storyteller0910
6: Meeko – sachertorte (1580), Spawn (1580)
[del]7: Mahaloth [/del]
[del]8: Freudian Slit[/del]
9: USCDiver
10: Alka Seltzer
[del]11: peekercpa[/del]
12: Natlaw
[del]13: Zeriel[/del]
14: DiggitCamara
15: amrussell
[del]16: KellyCriterion[/del]
17: Red Skeezix
18: sachertorte
[del]19: fluiddruid[/del]
20: TexCat – Spawn (1578), Storyteller (1578)
21: Rysto – DiggitCamara (1575), Spawn (1575)
I am mobile. iPod won’t let me comment after this quote.
WTF. Sach? I do not follow any of this. At all.
You seem to me to be magic bagging and soft claiming everything and the kitchen sink.
I am confused. I admit. You imply strongly that drain is as well.
Well then, explain. Now is no time for a cryptic town. At all. For lack of better terms. You are smudging with a side of nayh nanh nah. Town should never do this ever. Let alone here in this game this late.
Come clean or claim or take your votes.
Hockey on now. Will be back in late tonight.
Neta smudge should probably be repalaced with “heavy-handed” insults and other slights.
storyteller, do you have a link to JSexton’s formula? I’m curious if there might be other Scum power roles (ie Godfather) that might tip the balance some.
I’m with you on the idea that Scum aren’t stupid and we can expect them to make all the same assumptions in their own threads that we do here, but I disagree that a Detective should have counter-claimed KellyCriterion last Summer. Despite the fact that her claim ended up being completely fabricated, I could see a role like that co-existing with a Detective. In a future, closed setup game, if a Town aligned Watcher claims would you also expect the Detective to claim?
Another idea I have that supports storyteller’s premise that we’re dealing with an almost all-vanilla game is the color. I can’t think of any color that would give us a single-celled detective or even a doctor. The numbers may break down to the fact that we have a lot of masons, a lot of scum, and a bunch of vanillas.
Also, I disagree with the premise that we should always say what we think when we’re Town. Say I think Natlaw made a slightly heavy-handed breadcrumb that he’s the Cop. Should I point it out for everyone to see? Or should I stay silent, hoping the Scum are skimming and don’t see what I saw? I always fall on the latter side.
The other thing I don’t like about sachertorte’s incessant detective-talk is that if he’s Town, the Scum can be pretty sure he’s not the detective, and can weed him out of the potential power role pool. Honestly, when I’m Vanilla, I try to avoid saying things like that, because then the Scum know I’m not the detective. When I’m vanilla (it’s been a while…) my goal is to get nightkilled, and I do everything within my power to make it so.
Sorry for my non-response. Honestly, at the time your vote (even if it was for me) kind of slipped under my radar. It shouldn’t have.
Nevertheless: when you’re right, you’re right. Had I thought about the whole thing a bit more, I would have noticed (like you did) that Drain’s vote was one of a mason defending a mason, not of scum pouncing on someone for voting for town.
I didn’t notice it. The question for he attentive reader is this: would scum have voted for Drain at the time? Would scum have subtly supported her case (to draw a suspected mason on his side, thus earning a bit of respect from the mason corps?)
Still:
Now, like my unvote hints, I had spotted at least one other Mason (because she defended** Drainbead**, subtly ever so subtly). She didn’t die until toNight.
About my storyteller vote: I still think he’s scummy and/or SK. I have played with him before and have also read what he thinks an ideal scummy player should do. So: He’s consistent with his idea that the best scum plays (and reasons) exactly as he would if he were Town-Folk. This extends to his playing of a SK role (in my mind).
- Storyteller? Under the radar? With these players? You’re kidding, right? (Or do you think Idle, or the former **Roosh **could play any of these games “under the radar?”)
- He has stated (in previous games) that a Vig shouldn’t kill unless he’s 100% sure about scumminess.
- He’d be absolutely right (if he were a town aligned vig) about not killing as a Vig. And he’d be even more right because his kills don’t even reveal information to town!
- I can’t envision any game design that gives a Vig that’s hobbled this badly. Even worse, since our Vig can’t even kill Spawn!
Worse than all: If his role works as he describes it, he wouldn’t even be lying (that much). And he could use it (once, at least) to kill anyone to prove his role without accountability!
Sorry, but
Vote storyteller
Vote spawn
So… I just need to be completely clear on this, if I may. You are saying that your primary reason for suspecting me is, apparently, that I have behaved in what you regard as a pro-Town manner? I’ve done exactly what I’d do if I were Town, and therefore I must be Scum?
How would you distinguish between my behavior in this present game, which you characterize as Scummy, and what my behavior would be if I were Town?
Worse than all: If his role works as he describes it, he wouldn’t even be lying (that much). And he could use it (once, at least) to kill anyone to prove his role without accountability!
Sorry, but
Vote storyteller
Vote spawn
[/QUOTE]
Whoops. Sorry.
You might want to unvote, story. 
Therein lies the rub, don’t it? I’m not characterizing your behavior in this game as scummy. I’m characterizing your role as scummy.
What I’m saying is that you’re one of those players whose basic philosophy is to always play as honestly as they can (indeed, didn’t you state that much yourself after your legendary first game? 
) Therefore you won’t show up as scummy. Ever. (As long as you hold true to your basic philosophy)
What I’m also saying is: You gave us (almostly) your exact PM, because it’s consistent with your basic philosophy as a player. Your role, as you stated it, simply doesn’t make sense as a townie role to me.