SDMB Diplomacy: Three is a Magic Number

OK, but as far as the rules are concerned, a draw recognizes no score of bases owned. If the four of us draw, the rules say we each own one-fourth of a draw.

So all that we’re niggling about here, AFAICT, is how the draw is treated under your scoring system, Nate. If I’m willing to give the base up in negotiations now that I expect to lose several moves down the road, for purposes of your scoring, I can’t see that that’s so bad.

I’m tired of this game, and with a busy two weeks to go before leaving the country for awhile, I’ve got other things I need to worry about. But can I bring myself to deliberately play less than my best over the board? I’m a frayed knot. :slight_smile: Meanwhile, Alex wants the damned base bad enough to keep on playing until he gets it, which ultimately he will. I’d like the option of acknowledging that reality without having to play it out. Settling this in the manner of Clemençeau rather than Joffre seems best all around.

True and true. I’m playing for pride, here, and if I can have that extra point without having to play for it and screw up anyone’s plans, I think that’s best. We’re all friends here.

I hereby vote yes on a draw under conditions of which I get credit (1. under Nate’s scoring system and 2. morally) for complete and total ownership of Rome and all other supply centers on the Italian peninsula, and no on a draw of any other sort.

[also copying this post into an email which I will send to all remaining players.]

But not, apparently, to me. It ain’t official until I get an email.

Certainly I’m willing to concede the issue on my scoring system. What do I care? I’m already trying to find a way to alter that to make it more representative.

I’d love to hear from the math geeks on ways to do so.

I didn’t receive an email either, White Lightning.

One thing about the scoring system that Abe Babe and I were discussing earlier was that it ought to differentiate between the number of bases controlled when a draw is agreed to, versus when another player wins.

While Abe had the integrity to oppose my efforts to go for the win, the scoring system gave him no incentive to do so. I’d suggest that those who are still on the board when a player controls 18 bases, should get considerably less than a point per base. Maybe as much as one-half point per base; maybe as little as a single point for surviving to the end. Since the large majority of Dip games end in draws, losing is a big deal.

Don’t I offset that by awarding double points to the victor? Even if a game ends 18-16 the points awarded end up being 36-16. That’s a decided advantage to the winner.

Hey, White Lightning, you wanna be Israel or not? C’mon, pleasepleaseplease? God is on your side, how can you lose?

Sorry Dave, I got caught by the board downtime last night before I remembered to respond to you. Here’s what I had:

Oh, right, sorry, one more thing. Dave, I’d be happy to at the least take a look at the position – is the variant map very complicated? Do you have a current game map handy? Also, erislover has dibs. erislover, if you’d rather have the 936 spot, that’s cool too. Whatever works for y’all.

Also I guess I forgot to send the email regarding the draw. I’ve done it now.

Lastly, I don’t think the double points to the victor takes into account what RTF is talking about, because the effect on the non-winners is the same in either case. The solo-er has incentive to go for the win, but no one else is affected – you’d get 16 points for losing with 16 centers and 16 points for fighting to a draw with 16 centers.

Exactly. Thanks!

Ok, am I just replacing france in 936 or is there something else going on, too?

I can certainly use you for France. I’ve zinged you off an email that should explain some things.

K, thanks…

…waiting for a quorum on White Lightning’s draw proposal in 983…

If it will make White Lightning’s decision any easier, I am going to have to bow out of Dip 936. The writing/editing gig is becoming much more involved than I initially thought, (that and I thought I would be through with 983 by now).

If erislover is taking over for France there, Mr. Lightning could take over for Turkey in that game. Or any other takers could do so.

Turkey’s in a pretty good position, with 5 supply centers, and good prospects for taking more. I am not currently at war with any of my neighbors.

You guys are playing catch-up ball there.

Dip 983 is a draw.

EOG statements to all players if you’d like.

I had been feverishly trying to work on a plan for Germany and I to ally and take pieces out of France and Italy. I could have done some real damage to Turkey and the Balkans, but I am not sure where Germany could have gone. France still had a strong presence on (my) Western Front and Denmark and the North Sea. Furthermore, the fact that he had fleets kept him pretty limited to where He could go.

I could have helped him into Munich, but that, initally, is pretty much it.

Any ideas how it could be carried out?

It’s been an interesting game. White Lightning, you are definitely a first-class addition to the SD Dip ranks. I had to hustle like hell for much of the game just to keep pace with you. Gotta say, having a strong Italy was really the biggest obstacle to my plans for global domination.

The game, from my perspective: after being lucky enough to (a) convince both England and Germany that Belgium was mine, and (b) otherwise institute strong, mutually beneficial nonaggression pacts with both of them and Italy, my strategy was to sit back until after the Spring 02 move was over while picking up Iberia, and waiting to see who was the best prospective victim of the Fighting Escargots.

I’m still proud of my “Run Awaaaay!!!” offense of the Spring 1902 move, looking for all the world like I’m moving as far away from all three of my neighbors as I can get, and yet being in very good position to attack any of them.

It also helped that I had a good relationship with Abe Babe (Russia) from a previous game; it was pleasant to have a steady dialogue with someone I wasn’t in a position to attack, or be attacked by, in the early going. We dabbled with the notion of simultaneously attacking England or Germany in the early going, but the timing never worked. If Russia had been willing to dedicate 2 units to a German attack in fall 02, I would have attacked Germany rather than England that move. (I’d expected that Italy was probably going to be Victim #1, except Italy always - always - kept a couple of fleets in the way, so the choice came down to England and Germany.) But going it alone, England was the obvious choice.

It helped that the center of gravity in the fighting in the West had shifted up towards Scandinavia, while the Lowlands were at peace. So the backdoor to England was open, and I sent my fleets steaming in.

Then, of course, I got the break that Russia and Italy had already taken advantage of: celestina’s play. She’d unintentionally been a power vacuum in Turkey, furthering their expansion; now she was playing to lose in England. Did I benefit from this? Absolutely. How much? That’s debatable.

If Sua had been able to keep playing, or if some other competent player had taken over England, I surely would have finished my conquest of England; the only question was how long it would take. While I took Liverpool, England would quickly have lost Norway to Russia if he played to defend his homeland - and then his remaining two units couldn’t have defended the two nonadjacent bases of London and Edinburgh.

What I really gained from the change of regime was Norway, and time.

The next pivotal thing was the combination of Italy’s stab of Russia as Russia was stabbing Germany, and (by now weak) Germany’s willingness to let me have Munich in order to present a solid defense against Russia. Without Munich, attacking Italy was out of the question; with Munich, it was finally feasible.

White Lighnting and I had discussed shooting for a 2-way draw, and I’m still kinda sorry I didn’t straightforwardly pursue that possibility. But I figured this was a door into the east that might reopen my chances for an outright win. If I could get enough armies through the gap, I’d be in a position to beat Italy to Warsaw and St.Pete if I timed the stab of Russia well. Unfortunately, on the move where Russia stabbed me, I dithered on whether or not to stab Russia, and decided to wait. Timing is everything, and mine was off.

From then on, we were in the endgame. I was helping Germany survive, finding that preferable to Russia regaining St.Pete and possibly picking up Berlin, as Italy and I fought our cat-and-mouse war in which my armies on the Italian front were chased out of one base and into the next.

My slim hope for a win, when we quit, was to preserve a hold on one Italian base up to the time I was able to stab Germany in a way that would allow me to pick up all three German-controlled bases. Germany was going to support my A Den-Lvn convoy, as I moved F Nth-Nwy in S08, which would allow a double attack on St.Pete in the fall, combined with a double attack on Berlin and F Bal-Swe. But it was a longshot that all that could work at the same time, and I was ready to call it quits anyway.

A win was just never quite there. All game, I could see a believable path to 17 bases, and only long-odds chances at picking up the 18th base that I needed.

Like you say, Germany’s naval power limited him. (You benefited from that when he attacked Warsaw. I wasn’t sure at the time why he was so fleet-happy.)

The problem is, Munich isn’t really vulnerable until Italy takes Tyrolia. And when that would be, will remain a mystery. (FWIW, I was planning on moving Mun-Trl again, and leaning toward, but not yet committed to, supporting it from Piedmont.) With Kiel and Ruhr supporting Bur-Mun, I couldn’t lose Munich in the spring.

And if Germany tips his hand before y’all can get Munich, you’ve wasted your chance: even if Italy wins Tyrolia, I can hold the Munich/Kiel line indefinitely if defending.

So first you’ve got to go all-out to get Italy into Tyrolia: A Vie-Trl with support from Boh and Tri. (Meanwhile, Germany’s supporting me into Lvn, Russia’s moving War-Pru and Sev-Ukr, I’m moving Nth-Nwy; Italy’s best bet in the Boot is A Ven-Rom with support from Nap, and Ion-Apu, Lyo-Pie cutting supports, Tun-Tys, Gre-Alb, NAf S Wes; if I do Pie S Mun-Trl, I also do Apu-Ven, Rom-Nap, Mar S Spa-Lyo, MAO-Spa, Eng S NAO-MAO.)

This pushes me completely out of the Lower Boot, even as I regain Venice. But Italy’s got a 4-on-3 advantage there in the fall, and will at worst lose Tyrolia while regaining Venice. And regaining Venice is his first priority - THEN he’ll go for Tyrolia again in S09, THEN Germany can stab me in F09, except I’ve stabbed him in F08, when I get to 17 units, with zero chance of getting further.

That’s how I see it, anyway.

Germany. What’s up, buddy?

Oh shit, I just realized that some of the units I thought were mine were England’s! LOL

France is in trouble! :eek: