After thinking about it, I think SenorBeef’s original number of starters is better. Having fewer starters seemed more interesting to me at first because it forces you to choose between good options, but that’s not much of a choice, really. I’m still sold on removing the WR/RB flex, but the 4/6 RB:WR ratio is probably best.
Alright, let me try to lay out some of the undecided issues and have people vote so we can get a clear idea of where the league stands.
- Should we do a standard or auction draft?
1a. If auction, how much starting money should each team receive? If standard, do you want a normal snake or some sort of non-snaking ABCD ABCD DCBA DCBA DCBA… type draft as I proposed? Details on the latter (how many picks before it flips) can still be worked out.
- Rosters. The default number of players for our league would be to basically double the amount of starters from a 12 man league - this would ensure roughly the same spread and quality levels of players. Should we try to run deeper (more starters) than this, shallower, or is that about right?
2a. Should we add a 3rd QB slot in a QB/RB/WR/TE flex spot?
2b. Should we lean towards lots of flex spots, few flex spots, or somewhere in the middle?
2c. Discard having kickers?
2d. Propose your preferred rosters.
- Relegation. Should we drop 1 or 2 players at the end of the season, or should it depend on some sort of results from the season? If so, how do we determine it?
3a. Should the player chosen be dropped based on having the lowest score for the year, or based on the lowest seeding due to win/loss ratio?
3b. Should the player(s) invited to the league next year be based off some sort of champion-only system, an overall evaluation of performance across several SDMB leagues (exact details can be figured out later), or a list of candidates in preferred order submitted by the members of the league?
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Should we do a standard week 15-16 playoff with our top 4 teams, or something else? Yahoo doesn’t have a lot of options, but we could manually do a custom implementation of our own system, like some sort of two week system listed above, or some other idea ourselves. I considered posting a question as to whether we should do a head to head or points league here, but I doubt anyone would support the latter. If you would, though, mention it here.
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Scoring - should we use a default yahoo scoring system, a modifier system like the all-pro league uses, or something new we create ourselves?
5a. If you want one of those first two choices but with minor tweaking, post those tweaks here. If you want to use a radically different and new scoring system, explain it here.
You may indicate if you wish if you feel strongly for or against any of these issues. We can use those feelings as tiebreakers. I may have left something out, if so, mention it here.
My answers:
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Standard
1a. Some sort of non-snake draft that reverses once. We’ll try to figure out exactly where the ideal flip point is to keep the draft as balanced as possible. -
Deeper. Strong preference. While fewer starters would put a greater emphasis on who you pick from week to week, more likely it means you could always just plug your studs in. More starters means you get more chance to compare more of you strength of your entire roster against other players, and assembling a better, deeper team is a more determinate factor of fantasy skill than being able to pick your matchups week to week, especially if the latter means you’ll just always be starting your studs. In fact, you could argue that you have more meaningful matchup decisions in a deeper league - if you have to start 3 RBs and they’re Peterson/McCoy/Blount, you’re pretty much always going to start your studs. But as it gets deeper, you may have a harder decision picking between Knowshon Moreno and Ryan Mathews for that last slot.
2a. Yes, strong preference. An above-default level of QB depth would be very interesting and make more draft strategies viable.
2b. Somewhere in the middle. Mostly fixed starters with 1-3 flex spots.
2c. Yes, discard kickers. We’re going to be maximizing the roster sizes (30) that yahoo allows, so keeping a kicker eliminates a player at a less assy position.
2d. QBx2, QB/RB/WR/TEx1, RBx4, WRx6, RB/WRx1, WR/TEx1, TEx2, Kx0, DEFx2, Benchx11 Could be persuaded to lower the amount of startable RBs by eliminating the flex slot, but I’d want to add another starter to replace it if so. Maybe another WR/TE slot.
- Drop 1 player
3a. Drop player with lowest score is my general preference. Could lead to perverse results if the player with the lowest score makes the playoffs due to fluke h2h matchups - we could potentially drop our champion which I realize makes it unviable. Maybe drop our lowest scorer if he’s amongst the people who miss the playoffs, otherwise drop the lowest seed? No strong preference here.
3b. Some sort of overall multi-league evaluation, strong preference. We could start from using Ellis Dee’s app that calculated your overall win rate if you were to hypothetically match up against every team in your leagues every week. Weighting results towards people who are successful in more leagues for a larger sample size. (also indicates greater sdmb FF participation/interest)
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The two week system would end our regular season fairly early (as we’d need an extra two weeks of playoffs), but since 4/6 of our players would make the playoffs, it only ends the season early for the two worst players. So I’d be cool with manually implementing a two week playoff system as discussed earlier in the thread.
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Use the all-pro scoring system. We’ve tweaked it to be a very good overall system and I don’t think this league needs anything radically different in the scoring department to be different enough.
I’m going to have very spotty internet access for a few days so don’t expect much from me. But I’m laying this down so we can focus the discussion and get things done. So please everyone register your preferences here.
- Should we do a standard or auction draft? Auction.
1a. If auction, how much starting money should each team receive? If standard, do you want a normal snake or some sort of non-snaking ABCD ABCD DCBA DCBA DCBA… type draft as I proposed? Details on the latter (how many picks before it flips) can still be worked out. Whatever the standard amount is increased proportionately to the final roster size versus standard Yahoo rosters? Don’t feel strongly about this. If standard, I prefer to stick with a snake format, and I do feel strongly about that.
- Rosters. The default number of players for our league would be to basically double the amount of starters from a 12 man league - this would ensure roughly the same spread and quality levels of players. Should we try to run deeper (more starters) than this, shallower, or is that about right? Slightly shallower. Don’t feel strongly about this.
2a. Should we add a 3rd QB slot in a QB/RB/WR/TE flex spot? Yes. Don’t feel strongly about this either.
2b. Should we lean towards lots of flex spots, few flex spots, or somewhere in the middle? Three - one QB/RB/WR/TE, one RB/WR/TE, and one WR/TE.
2c. Discard having kickers? No. Do feel strongly about this.
2d. Propose your preferred rosters. I’m pretty good with the one you posted above.
- Relegation. Should we drop 1 or 2 players at the end of the season, or should it depend on some sort of results from the season? If so, how do we determine it? Drop 2 if the worst record and worst score are different teams. Drop one if the same team has the worst record and worst score. Feel strongly about this.
3a. Should the player chosen be dropped based on having the lowest score for the year, or based on the lowest seeding due to win/loss ratio? Both.
3b. Should the player(s) invited to the league next year be based off some sort of champion-only system, an overall evaluation of performance across several SDMB leagues (exact details can be figured out later), or a list of candidates in preferred order submitted by the members of the league? Champion only with voting - the winners of the five SDMB leagues are the only ones eligible, and we select the new team (or teams) by vote. Feel strongly about this.*
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Should we do a standard week 15-16 playoff with our top 4 teams, or something else? Yahoo doesn’t have a lot of options, but we could manually do a custom implementation of our own system, like some sort of two week system listed above, or some other idea ourselves. I considered posting a question as to whether we should do a head to head or points league here, but I doubt anyone would support the latter. If you would, though, mention it here. Don’t really see the point of a four team playoff when there are only 6 of us. I really, really like the 2-week championship game idea. I would actually be pretty okay with a points league- takes some of the luck out of it- but I do think those are less fun.
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Scoring - should we use a default yahoo scoring system, a modifier system like the all-pro league uses, or something new we create ourselves? I’m in favor of keeping things as standard as possible.
5a. If you want one of those first two choices but with minor tweaking, post those tweaks here. If you want to use a radically different and new scoring system, explain it here. How does the modifier system work? I like the 1/2 point per reception the Dynasty league uses.
*HHM, All-Pro, Big, Dynasty, Auction
1. Should we do a standard or auction draft?
– Auction, definitely. Feel very strongly about this.
**1a. If auction, how much starting money should each team receive? **
– Doesn’t matter. But since we want to avoid strange outcomes or further minutiae debate, the total number of players drafted is roughly equal to a 12 team league. 12 teams at $200 each = $2400 total. Half the teams means $1200 total, so double the money to start ($400 per team). That way every player retains the same starting values. (It also means my dream of entering the draft with $200 budgets and the first players going for $50 before anyone realizes is now shot. Damn.)
1a (cont.)If standard, do you want a normal snake or some sort of non-snaking…?
– Too many details to iron out for not enough upside. I understand why a standard snake could work here. The real question is why it’s better. And it isn’t. So there isn’t any reason to finagle the Snake draft format to fit a square peg into a round hole.
2. Rosters. … Should we try to run deeper (more starters) than this, shallower, or is that about right?
– Thought about it and I’ll vote for any outcome except fewer starters. More or same is okay with me.
2a. Should we add a 3rd QB slot in a QB/RB/WR/TE flex spot?
– Like the idea.
2b. Should we lean towards lots of flex spots, few flex spots, or somewhere in the middle?
– As long as the only flex that allows a RB is the above flex with the QB, any number of other flexes/combinations is fine. I feel very strongly about the QB/RB/WR/TE flex being the only one for a RB.
2c. Discard having kickers?
– Disagree
2d. Propose your preferred rosters.
– Any combination is okay with me so long as 2b is adhered to.
3. Relegation. Should we drop 1 or 2 players at the end of the season … ?
– 1 player. Feel strongly about this.
3a. Should the player chosen be dropped based on having the lowest score for the year, or based on the lowest seeding due to win/loss ratio?
– The solution here is built into the league. If the objective is to win and determined by win/loss record, relegation must be so as well. If the league is a points league, then points can be used to decide. Any other solution is moving the goalposts. Points are used as a tie break and so can be used as a tie break.
3b. Should the player(s) invited to the league next year be based off some sort of champion-only system, an overall evaluation of performance across several SDMB leagues (exact details can be figured out later), or a list of candidates in preferred order submitted by the members of the league?
– I would vote champions-only, but I’d also allow the option for the winner to choose from a pre-determined list as well. I feel strongly about not using any evaluation of performance other than winning because those evaluations always rate me poorly. I’m the guy who takes average teams and overachieves. I’ve never had the highest points. I micromanage like hell to get in the playoffs and make the choices there that earn championships.
4. Should we do a standard week 15-16 playoff with our top 4 teams, or something else?
– (H2H of course) – 2 weeks per playoff round with adjusted trade deadlines to match. 4 teams is preferable to 2.
5. Scoring - should we use a default yahoo scoring system, a modifier system like the all-pro league uses, or something new we create ourselves?
– Standard scoring +PPR, +return yards, with 4pts for a passing TD so as QBs don’t go for $100 each. No benchmarks/bonuses.
Other options:
–FAAB with carry over from auction draft funds. What would happen if we only allowed the carried over funds (no starting $100). You’d have to make a conscious choice to spend all your money on the draft (better starting team) or save money for potential waiver additions. But what happens if you have $0 at the end of the draft, could you still make a waiver claim? I really like this idea.
Will we use any sort of waiver system where we message the commish our choices? Is that required in a FAAB system? (I can’t remember)
I would also very much like a keeper league with concessions made to an incoming player if at all possible. Extra $ for the draft/FAAB if they keep no one, ability to “keep” someone else’s unkept players like an expansion draft, etc… I really, really want this. It would be very fun.
- Standard
1a. Snake
- Slightly deeper
2a. No
2b. Middle
2c. No
2d. Can’t right now.
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- Dropping 1/3 of the league seems excessive.
3a. Seeding. It’s possible for a team with the lowest score to make the playoffs - I don’t think it’d be fair to kick a playoff team out.
3b. List based off of performance.
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4 weeks of playoffs (2 rounds of 2 weeks each). I’d consider a points-only league, or a no-playoffs league that ends at Week 15.
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Mostly standard scoring. Too much tinkering becomes tinkering for tinkering’s sake.
5a. I’d prefer PPR (or at least .5/reception), but can live without.
I also really like this idea. Certainly much better than the idea of paying $10 for Nate Burleson because my roster is already full and, hey, might as well spend it.
No money left? No waiver pickups for you. I’m assuming post-waiver free agent pickups will still be free.
Put this way, I agree. Changing my vote to only one drop, based on record, and on head-to-head results if records are tied.
- Should we do a standard or auction draft?
Standard draft, and I feel moderately strongly about it. A big part of the appeal of auction drafts is that you’re not sitting out doing nothing for long stretches while you wait for your turn to come around, but that’s not an issue with a 6-team draft; we’ll be constantly updating the queue and making plans, and there will be interesting strategic decisions about choosing the player you most want versus the player you want somewhat less but who is also less likely to be available at your next pick (in a 12-team league, this is usually only a concern for teams picking near the turn each round). Just feels right.
1a. If auction, how much starting money should each team receive?
Don’t care – anywhere from $200 to $400 is fine, makes no difference.
1a (cont.) If standard, do you want a normal snake or some sort of non-snaking ABCD ABCD DCBA DCBA DCBA… type draft as I proposed?
Ambivalent. Snaking is fine, I think (it makes less of a difference where you are than it would in a 12-teamer), but if we can find a way to do non-snaking that doesn’t yield an appreciable advantage to any one draft slot, that would also be good. We just can’t flip the draft order more than a couple or three times during the draft, or else it will be confusing and people’s picks will sneak up on them.
- Rosters. The default number of players for our league would be to basically double the amount of starters from a 12 man league - this would ensure roughly the same spread and quality levels of players. Should we try to run deeper (more starters) than this, shallower, or is that about right?
A little bit deeper.
2a. Should we add a 3rd QB slot in a QB/RB/WR/TE flex spot?
2b. Should we lean towards lots of flex spots, few flex spots, or somewhere in the middle?
I would tend to prefer fewer flex spots – 2 or *maybe *3 RB/WR/TE slots – but if the league decides otherwise that would at least be different and potentially interesting.
I don’t like the idea of making a flex spot that includes QBs.
2c. Discard having kickers?
YES!!! It’s the least interesting, most randomness-infusing part of every league.
2d. Propose your preferred rosters.
QBx3
RBx4
WRx6
RB/WRx2
TEx2
DEFx3
Kx0 (and please no more than 1).
Bench = 10
- Relegation. Should we drop 1 or 2 players at the end of the season, or should it depend on some sort of results from the season? If so, how do we determine it?
3a. Should the player chosen be dropped based on having the lowest score for the year, or based on the lowest seeding due to win/loss ratio?
I like RNATB’s suggestion: drop the worst record and the lowest point total, whether or not they’re the same person. If not that, then I have a minor preference for dropping 2 instead of 1, and a *very *minor preference for using W/L record instead of points.
3b. Should the player(s) invited to the league next year be based off some sort of champion-only system, an overall evaluation of performance across several SDMB leagues (exact details can be figured out later), or a list of candidates in preferred order submitted by the members of the league?
Commissioner’s discretion, with the counsel of the rest of the league. Failing that, preference voting. Keep it informal, since there will always be factors either for or against each candidate that no formula is going to reflect.
- Should we do a standard week 15-16 playoff with our top 4 teams, or something else?
No playoffs per se, just a one-off championship game between the top two teams. If we thought we could manage it, making this championship game 2 weeks long would also be ok.
I really don’t like the idea of 2/3 of the league of making the playoffs.
- Scoring - should we use a default yahoo scoring system, a modifier system like the all-pro league uses, or something new we create ourselves?
Mostly standard, except we halve the value of Touchdowns: 2 for passing TDs, 3 for all others. If you want to weed out randomness, a yardage-intensive system is the way to go.
Also: sacks should incur a penalty for QBs, fumbles that aren’t lost should incur a penalty for the fumbler, return yards = “yes” in moderation (at least 30 yards per point, preferably a bit more), ppr at no more than .5, and a slight bump to DEF scoring for points allowed.
FAAB$ being solely made up of unused draft money is fine if go auction (which, again, I hope we don’t).
I like the 2/3 point touchdown idea, and a 1 point penalty for non-lost fumbles.
I don’t want to start a barrage of comments regarding others’ preferences, but I thought this was worthy of a one-off. I have never heard of this rationale for an auction before. Honestly. The far and away biggest appeal of auction is ultimate control of your team and access to every player. If you don’t land the first pick in a standard draft you have no chance of getting that top player. If you end up last, you can’t possibly try out an ADP/Foster combo.
The most frustrating thing in all of fantasy is either injuries or Mike Shanahan. Closely followed by getting your sleeper darling sniped the pick before yours. I’m surprised at the support for a standard draft in today’s fantasy environment. 
To each their own, I guess!
shrug People like what they know. I’ve been playing fantasy football since 2000 or so, and in that time I’ve done 2 auction drafts (in Beef’s SDMB league) and probably 50 standard drafts.
nm
I’ve been the one pushing auction drafts in the SDMB for years, so if I thought auction drafts would be best here I’d certainly be pushing that idea.
The main issue here is - do we want the draft to be comfortable and intuitive so that football knowledge is the dominant factor, or should we add a strong element to figuring out who’s the best at devising draft strategy? Both are valid so there’s no right answer here.
Auction drafts tend to be counterintuitive the first time you try it in a certain format. The big league last year was a weird auction because there were so many teams chasing after the players - people were trying to figure out how to value players in the middle of the draft. A lot of people probably left the draft thinking “I really didn’t know what I was doing there, but next year I’ll have some idea” - but any downside like that is outweighed in the big league by how much auction brings to the draft. You could go 40 picks between your picks in a league that huge. You didn’t feel like you had much control over building your team. Auction pretty hugely improved it.
But with 6 players, we have much more control in a standard format than you would in larger leagues. You get to make a pick every 6 picks on average and so you have a lot of opportunities to get the guys you really want. You don’t go entire tiers through the draft without being involved. Essentially, the more players involved, the more appealing auction becomes.
Standard is more intuitive, so we can focus more on just drafting the best players rather than coming up with the ideal auction adjustments. Again, this is just a value judgement - you may think such strategizing is a valuable part of the skills of FF and I don’t really disagree. I just thought that having so few teams would give us enough control that the advantages of auction aren’t that important.
Anyway, we’ll need to hear from Omni then I’ll try to come up with the consensus results and address any last minute tweaks we need.
I’ll reply tomorrow. I don’t have time to give this proper consideration tonight.
Okay, I’m withdrawing my vote for auction format. On consideration, I don’t think it’s necessary with only 6 teams.
I’m not dead set on standard, so I’d be ok if we did auction. Snake standard vs auction is actually a lot closer to me, I’d strongly prefer my ABCD ABCD DCBA DCBA DCBA… proposal and no one else seems interested in that.
Anyway, during the all pro draft we were talking about that first auction league draft we did, before yahoo had auction drafts, where I had to try to be the auctioneer on voice chat, and that it was an interesting experience. I was thinking we should all hop on voice chat this year for this draft to make the experience more interesting.
Grab a mic, they’re like $8-12, but even if you won’t, at least hop on the voice chat with us so you can hear the rest of us and type back at us. Grab ventrilo. It’s free, easy to set up, and we’ve already got an SDMB server.
I’ve got a mic. And cam! I’m playing drinking draft, though, so you might not hear anything over me chugging every time somebody says, “you stole my pick!”
I don’t like the rejiggered standard draft idea at all.
I’m down for a ventrillo draft if every one else is, obviously – it was huge fun before. If we do go that way and everyone else either already has or is going to get a microphone, I’d be happy to get one myself. OTOH, it did work well before having everyone typing except for the auctioneer/commissioner. Possibly that makes it easier to run things without confusion? Could be wrong, don’t have a lot of experience with this sort of thing.
In case it wasn’t clear from my previous post, that kind of order would be fine with me.
Well I won’t really be running things since we’ll have a proper draft and yahoo’s application will handle the actual details. I just thought it might be fun to get us on voice chat so we could do more free flowing and frequent commentary on picks as they come.
With only 6 of us, it’s relatively easy to get everyone on board, and I think the draft will take on a more intimate feel because of that too.
I’m working my way through the back and forths of the debates and will give responses to each point separately.
1. Should we do a standard or auction draft?
I vote against Auction. I’m open to either a custom or serpentine standard draft. I think the arguments against a serpentine draft are pretty thin and I see little reason to fight against it. In a league this small the wait between picks at the corners is pretty trivial. If the consensus is that a custom, balanced draft order which does away with the sandwich picks I have no real issue with that, it just strikes me a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist.
If a non-serpentine draft is preferred, I’d suggest that we create a draft lottery process. We draw names out of a hat 5 times, 10 times or 25 times, whatever. Let luck determine where we draft in each round. We draw names out of a hat for the first round order, then repeat the process for the second round and then again for the third and so on. Once we get to a certain point, 5 rounds or 10, we stop drawing just recycle the results for the previous lotteries until all the rounds are full. Having the draft lottery could be a fun little event in and of itself. Sure, this could end up in an unbalanced result but I’m fine with that, it’d be fun enough to justify it and in a 6 team league the difference between 6 picks isn’t crippling.
If this has the potential to be too unbalanced, you could simply inverse all the even rounds. Have a first round lottery and then have 1 round serpentine based off that result. Repeat the lottery for the 3rd round and then make that serpentine in the 4th. This is fundamentally balanced, at least as much as a standard serpentine is.
1a. If auction, how much starting money should each team receive? If standard, do you want a normal snake or some sort of non-snaking ABCD ABCD DCBA DCBA DCBA… type draft as I proposed? Details on the latter (how many picks before it flips) can still be worked out.
See above for the standard proposal. As for the auction, I don’t know. With such a small league and such deep rosters I haven’t a clue how to strategize a auction. This is fundamentally why I’m opposed to it. I hear the argument that auctions are inherently more challenging and fair, but in this wildly unconventional league messing up an auction has too much potential to undermine the league entirely. I’m sure we can come up with a workable solution if the vote is for auction, but I’ll save my brainpower for when that determination is made.