So in this video, is the silver haired guy “sealioning” (until the dark haired guy absolutely snaps at the 1 minute mark)?
Rather than just pile on with the abuse, I’ll agree that the kind of thing you’re talking about in this and earlier posts does sometimes happen, it’s a problem, and I think some people on the Left should raise the level of discourse.
But sealioning is a real tactic that is used to defocus debate, to distract and troll. Just as with anything, no doubt false accusations of sealioning can sometimes be used in the way you describe. That doesn’t mean that sealioning isn’t something real and shitty.
I’m also starting to come around to the view that the original cartoon is just confusing, it obfuscates rather than clarifies what the problem of sealioning really is.
RE: the colloquial use of the word “treason” vs. the legal definition: I got no dog in this fight, but I do have a suggestion: “Treachery” is a word that conveys the notion of deceitful betrayal, including against one’s country, without being susceptible to legal-vs.-colloquial-definition nitpicking. (Unless you’re talking about the WWII-era U.K.; then it’s tricky.) Trump’s actions toward the Kurds may or may not be treasonous, but they’re damn sure treacherous.
All treason is treacherous, but not all treachery is treasonous.
Good point.
I appreciate your more balanced approach. But as I said above, if sealioning is not what’s shown in the cartoon, someone should come up with a new term. I know words can evolve beyond their origins, but this one is recent enough, and still relatively unknown enough, that people are going to google the term and see that cartoon. If what is portrayed there is not at all what is meant, that’s a problem. And the sea lion in the cartoon is not “distracting and trolling”. He’s objecting politely to his kind being disparaged, and asking the woman to justify having done so. That’s literally all he is doing.
I don’t see how calling someone a murderer or saying they should be in prison has anything to do with sealioning. If the word has morphed that much, it is essentially meaningless. In any case, my defense is not of people like those commenters. It is of people like the sea lion in the cartoon.
Not at all. My cousin is into that stuff, and it horrifies me much more than the “woke” crowd I find so aggravating. Let’s posit a “continuum of wokeness” from -100 to +100, with Sargon at say -90, and iiandyiii at +85. I would place myself at about +35. That’s certainly far enough away from Andy to at minimum massively roll my eyes at his political correctness, and often to get really irked by it. But while he’s 50 points away from me in one direction, Sargon is 125 points in the other direction. To people like you, though, we are both compressed together, somewhere off on the distant alt-right horizon. :rolleyes:
Nope. Like Sam Harris, in no sane political philosophy am I conservative. I always vote for (and donate to, and volunteer for) Democrats, I support much greater taxation on the wealthy, universal healthcare and a strong social safety net, worker safety protections, a substantial increase in the minimum wage, strict environmental regulation, reparations for slavery, dramatically increased funding for schools, gay marriage, free speech and assembly, protection of the rights of the accused, separation of church and state, etc. I am a liberal in almost every respect. I’m just not a “woke” identity politics progressive. But you woke types can’t handle nuance very well (not that right wingers can either), so it’s easier to simply label me as a conservative and not have to think.
In your description of “literally” everything the sea lion does, you left out the part where he stalks the couple to the point of showing up uninvited in their house.
With that said, I don’t see the particular relevance of this comic to public internet discussions.
I don’t either, but I do look forward to SlackerInc’s scholarly dissection of the pernicious RadFem misandrist subtext behind *The Family Circus *and Marmaduke.
For sure, because I created this thread by misapplying some random cartoon to Internet discussions when that was not intended and has never been done before. Oh wait, that’s not what happened at all. :rolleyes:
It’s a fair point that the part you point to is a perplexing element. I’m not sure what that’s supposed to represent. I guess I take it as simply his showing up in different threads or whatever, but if someone else can shed some light I’d be happy to reevaluate.
…if the word has “morphed this much?”
You are a fucking stupid buffoon.
Learn your history. It hasn’t morphed. The word was coined to describe this very behaviour. That’s how sealioning actually looks like in the real world: not that ridiculous fantasy scenario you invented out of nothing. Sealioning is harassment. Its always been about harassment and trolling and it has been since the word was adopted by the anti-goobergate community way back in good-old 2014. Some examples from that thread:
Much more at the link. For background check out hereand here.
You are defending these people. You don’t get to rewrite history. The origins of the word are clear.
…its the entire point of the cartoon. That you find it “perplexing” yet consider yourself such an expert on the subject that you think the “definition has morphed” just goes to show how much of an ignorant buffoon you really are.
BB, It’s not possible for me to be defending a group of people about something I’ve never even heard of before. I have no idea why they are calling her a murderer, although I assume it is a bogus accusation. But the sea lion in the cartoon is not doing anything like that. He doesn’t call her names or accuse her of anything, in fact, except being prejudiced against him and being unwilling to explain why.
And if you are claiming that sealioning predates the web comic, I’m afraid I’m very skeptical of that and I’m going to have to ask for a cite, no matter how ironic anyone might find that. 
ETA: In what world do harsh and presumably slanderous accusations in a public Twitter comment thread map to polite questions at someone’s home? That’s as clear as mud.
How would you characterize HD’s specific flavor of trolling? It’s very clear, IMO, that he’s almost always not making an attempt at an honest exchange of ideas and arguments.
…and yet here you are.
I provided two cites for background.
The sealion in the cartoon was used to describe a set of behaviours that had been adopted by a certain crowd on the internet. Intrinsic to that cartoon are the frames where the sealion shows up uninvited to the house. It isn’t sealioning if that doesn’t happen. And in the example I provided Z#$ Quinn started a thread to talk about her new creative works and it was brigaged by people asking her questions about being a murderer in a variety of different and polite ways.
I’m not claiming this, and one has to simply look at the cites already provided in this thread as to the origin of the word to be able to figure out where the word came from. The cartoon isn’t “the definition.” Its where the term originated, that’s all.
In what world does a sealion actually talk, and walk, and would actually be capable of asking “polite questions at someone’s home?”
Are you really this fucking stupid? Do you actually think the cartoon was being literal? “The home” is the “twitter thread.” The thread was about Quinn’s accomplishments. The sealions in that thread were asking questions like “are you a murderer? Just asking for a friend.” It doesn’t have to exactly replicate the conditionals of the cartoon because thats how things work in the real world.
Then it’s some kind of abusive behavior that is not sealioning. It’s not either sealioning or nothing at all. There are many words in the dictionary and many different ways for people to act.
Also, when you create a Twitter thread, assuming you don’t protect your tweets, it is not your “home” any more than a thread you create on this board is your home. You seriously need to get a clue if you don’t understand that. It’s even more ridiculous on Twitter, which is very close to unmoderated. No one has a right to tweet publicly and get only positive responses. If you don’t like that, don’t use Twitter.
I have seen people cite posts of his that seem to be defending violence and things like that, which is totally beyond the pale. I don’t know if that means he is not being honest. You would have to cite an example if you want me to be more specific than that.
But again, there is no indication that the sea lion in the comic is being dishonest.
That it’s not wildly evident to you already is enough of an answer for me.
…you see I don’t think that quite right. HD reflects the views of millions of Americans. They are indoctrinated. He lives in a post truth world where everything is best articulated by a talking point. From his point of view arguing via talking point is an " honest exchange of ideas and arguments", IHMO.
I think threads like this (a them in which he’s repeatedly come back to) demonstrate his lack of interest in actual debate and exchange of ideas with those he disagrees with: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=860772
https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=831416
Also this: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=864198
and: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=840554
https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=842802
https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=846754
These are not honest attempts to engage. These are disguised trolling threads.
Even if that’s true, it’s not inconsistent with his use of sealioning as a general approach to debate. For those who don’t like the term “sealioning” because it sounds like some kind of new Internet meme introduced by a clever and fashionable cartoon strip, the concept is not new at all. It’s closely related to a type of harassment that is as old as human relations, practiced from childhood but familiar to all ages, where the instigator quietly pokes at the victim while staying within the nominal rules of behavior (“I’m not touching you!”) until the victim becomes the one who cracks and transgresses the rules, or the law, and the victim is the one who suffers the consequences. This is pretty much HD’s modus operandi. If he’s not an actual sea lion, by golly I think we should throw him some fresh fish anyway, I’m sure he’ll gulp it right down and bark his thanks.
Harassment is part of the definition of the word. It was coined to describe abusive behaviour. You don’t know what the fuck you are talking about.
I’m inclined to accept the definition provided by wiki and I will decline to accept the definition of the guy who was “perplexed” by the entire point of the original cartoon.
The cartoon was not being 100% literal you buffoon. It was an analogy.
Sealioning defines the behaviour. It isn’t a statement on what happens if you do or you don’t protect your tweets. That’s irrelevant to the definition.
Just fuck right off with this bullshit. Sealioning defines the behaviour. If you behave like this you are a sealion. Thats it. I’m not making a statement on “what should be” or “what shouldn’t be” allowed. Stop pivoting.
Sealioning was an effective tactic until it was identified, defined, and then people learnt how to combat it. You don’t get to decide who can and can’t use Twitter.
…with respect, whether or not a thread topic is “trolling” is subjective, and I looked at all those threads and I personally don’t see it. But even if I were to accept that they were all troll threads, this thread here is about sealioning. As I said earlier: I personally can’t separate the term from its origins. And it origins were the fallout from goobergate. It will always be linked to that hateful, destructive campaign. And the harassment part of the definition is an essential element. What happened in that Z@e Quinn thread I cited absolutely was sealioning. HD’s typical behaviour here? You can call it bad-faith, disingenuous, trolling, all sorts of words fit. But he isn’t harassing anyone. He isn’t posting here with the intent of destroying anyone here. And I personally think the distinction matters.
Then my understanding of sealioning differs from yours. What happened to Quinn was straight harassment – sealioning is more subtle, as I understand it.