Searching Tips Needed

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

I know some of you GQ people hang out in here, and I’m really hoping Duck Duck Goose’ll show up.

Mostly, I post in the Pit and here in MPSIMS. But I lurk in GD about as much as I read here, I just never have anything intelligent to add.

Today, I have decided to expand my mental horizons and try to get involved in GQ as well. For GQ, unlike GD, I don’t need to have well-informed opinions before going into the thread, in theory I can read the question, use the vast resources at my fingertips and provide cites for my assertions.

Except I have been having notoriously bad luck with actually finding cites. I use google and Ask Jeeves, but I always end up searching through 100 pages and finding nothing useful.

Does anyone have tips for my stay in GQ?

2

Try http://www.allonesearch.com/all1www.html#WWW

3

I’ve always had pretty good luck using http://www.dogpile.com

4

Well, the best search engine in the world isn’t going to help you if you don’t know how to formulate a good search.

Go to google and read all the documentation you can find on search phrasing. Then practice. Think of topics where you know a good resource and then play with searches and see if you can get your preferred site to float to the top.

I’m still waiting for an internet search engine with DIALO-level power for search phrases.

5

DIALO should be DIALOG.

6

Does Dogpile still work? Haven’t been able to get in for a long time.

7

Often I find that I have to make several passes, starting with general and vague words or phrases on a search engine, then looking at the results that crop up - and, using the information gathered from these results, refining the search via more specific words. These specific words will probably lead you to sites with specialized information, where you can type in the search criteria again, but with much more targeted results.

If you’re like me, after doing this for a while you’ll collect a bunch of bookmarks, which you can then hit directly rather than going through a search engine. So, Google is good, but it ain’t all.

8

Yes, Violet, dogpile’s working just fine. And it’s a great one to give you a little bit of understanding of how different search engines approach a subject.

My general order is Google first, then dogpile, then followup with Yahoo. And there are some under the radar search resources you can use as well.

obfusciatrist’s point is important; how you phrase a search makes a lot of difference. When I have trouble finding something, I sometimes start reading what does turn up until I pick up some related info I hadn’t already known that helps me focus the search.

9

DDG seems about the best I have seen at this, so I hope she does drop in to give advice.

For me, I find a couple of things usually get me exactly what I want on the first pass. If you can think of a way to “word” or frame the search that is likely to limit the choices. Words or combinations of words that are unique to your subject will do the trick. In some case this means including a lot of words. As an example, if I want to know the lyrics to Sweet Emotion by Aerosmith:

Sweet Emotion will probably turn up a lot of static.

Sweet Emotion Aerosmith will be a bit better, but will also leave a lot of chaff.

lyrics Sweet Emotion Aerosmith will give you the lyrics on the first page, usually the first site you go to.

If the search is more particular, it helps to have some knowledge on the subject so that you can refine the search from the get go. For example, the other day I wanted to find the words to the poem with the line, “I met a man who wasn’t there”. Now none of these words is very unique, and a search would turn up millions of hits. If you know that the author’s name is Hughes Mearns, you will probably hit it on the first try. If you know that the title is called Antigonish then you are even better off. So a search for
Hughes Mearns Antigonish man who wasn’t there will probably yield the optimal result, but of course if you already know all that the search is just a search for a reference on something you already know, versus a search to learn something new.

10

This is all good advice, but I would add a bit more. For instance, in the example given above try using quotes around the phrase. Even though the words without quotes would give you millions of hits, entering “I met a man who wasn’t there” (include the quotes) gave me the author and full poem on the first page. (using Google)

Knowing the terminology of whatever you are looking for always helps. If you want information on coin-collecting, you will do better if you know that it is called numismatics.

Know some of the technical and government databases. Most government agencies are full of information which is not usually directly available through Google. Your public library can help here also. I regularly use databases like WorldCat which are not directly available to the general public but have been licensed by my public library (Cleveland) to be available to anyone with a library card.

As someone already mentioned, build your own collection of “Favorites” to index subjects in which you have interests. My own interest is in finding out-of-print books. I have probably a hundred or so links to online resources about books, organized into categories like “book search engines”, “science and technical bookstores”, “cookbooks”, “religious bookstores”, etc. The larger and more organized you make your collection of links, the easier it will be to find things the next time.

Good luck!

11

[enters thread sheepishly]

:o golly.

Well, I dunno, I don’t really think about it that much, you know? I’m a pretty verbal person, and a fast typist, so I don’t spend much time sitting there and racking my brain for search terms or strings, I just start typing in words. A good starting point is just the main words. If I want to know something about what Sitchin says about Sumerian astronomy, I’d put in something like “sitchin sumerian astronomy”. Abuse Angel wanted to know how to fold a heart into a note, so I put in “origami heart”. Holden Caulfield wanted to know a definition of “organic” as applied to food standards, so first I put in “FDA definition standard”, and then that brought up a website that mentioned the new USDA standard, so I put in something like “USDA national standard organic”.

It also takes a certain amount of reading the hits that turn up, to make sure they aren’t totally lame. It doesn’t automatically hold true that Hit #1 will be the best hit for your purposes.

The way Google works, as I understand it, is that it searches, not every page on the Web, but only the pages that somebody, somewhere, has linked on his Web page. This means that your Hit #1 is going to be the most popular reference to be cited on people’s Web pages, all over the Internet, but not necessarily the most correct, or the most useful.

Advanced Search and Search Within Results are also very useful. It’s also important to remember that Google searches for exactly the spelling you tell it to, so for some things you have to try different spellings, and try word substitutions, like:

Cape Malay women remove teeth fellatio
Cape Malay women knock out teeth fellatio
Cape Malay women knock out teeth oral sex
Cape Malay women remove teeth oral sex
Cape Malays remove teeth fellatio
Cape Malays knock out teeth fellatio
Cape Malays knock out teeth oral sex
Cape Malays remove teeth oral sex

See? Sooner or later something useful comes up, and as in the “Prostitutes remove teeth to facilitate oral sex” thread, if nothing comes up, well, that tells you something, too.

It helps if you’re a verbal, fast typist. :smiley:

I would not even waste my time Asking Jeeves, sorry. Jeeves only works if you’re looking for something really mainstream, like breast cancer support groups, or Miss Cleo. But with other, General Questions-type stuff, all Jeeves can do is guess, and he’s usually wrong.

I also have a lot of extremely useful websites bookmarked, like Merriam-Webster and HowStuffWorks.com, not to mention a lot of FDA and USPS and USDA websites. This speeds things up considerably.

Anyway, overall it’s just a “practice makes perfect” thing. Keep doing it and you’ll get the hang of it. It’s not rocket science. :smiley:

12

Just for the heck of it, I went over to Ask Jeeves and asked him: “FDA definition organic”. He gave me:

  1. Quackwatch Home Page

Your guide to quackery and alternative medicine
From: http://www.quackwatch.com/
2.
Xenical (orlistat) Faq’s and Prescriptions.

Xenical (orlistat) Faq’s and Prescriptions. Most informative website. The truth about Xenical side effects and interaction. Know the facts before you take Xenical>
From: http://www.onlinepills.com/cgi-bin/af/b.cgi/2363/xenfaq.html
3.
Jon Rappoport’s ‘The Great Boycott: Dow, Du Pont, Monsanto’

REVOLT AGAINST THE EMPIRE WELCOME TO THE GREAT BOYCOTT is a boycott against the eight biggest pesticide companies in the world, but it is much more than that. It’s a boycott against THE POWER and against a way of life represented by all… These are…
From: http://home.earthlink.net/~alto/boycott.html
4.
91. IMPOTENCE

National Institutes of Health Consensus Development Conference Statement December 7-9, 1992 This statement is also published as: Impotence. NIH Consens Statement 1992 Dec 7-9;10(4):1-31. For making bibliographic reference to the… CONSENSUS…
From: http://text.nlm.nih.gov/nih/cdc/www/91txt.html
5.
Common Definitions and Terms in Organic Chemistry

Common Definitions and Terms in Organic Chemistry the miminmum energy which reacting species must possess in order to be able to form an ‘activated complex’, or ‘transition state’, before proceeding to the products. [The activation energy… an…
From: http://www.brunel.ac.uk/depts/chem/definit/definit.htm
6.
Letter - Viagra

As with all medical products, healthcare professionals are strongly encouraged to report any serious adverse events that are associated with the use of Viagra (sildenafil citrate) to either FDA’s MedWatch program by phone (1-800-FDA-1088),…
From: http://www.fda.gov/medwatch/safety/1998/viagra.htm
7.
Herb World News Online · World

FDA Backs Down on Proposed Disease Definition January 7, 2000: In a major victory for the dietary supplement industry and the American public, the Food and Drug Administration issued a final ruling in the January 6, 2000 Federal Register, clarifying the…
From: Herb World News Online · World
8.
Organic Trade Association- About Organic

Definition of Organic- The following definition of “organic” was passed by the NOSB at its April 1995 meeting in Orlando, FL. "Organic agriculture is an ecological production management system that promotes and enhances biodiversity, biological cycles and…
From: http://www.ota.com/abouto.htm
9.
Cancer-Drug.com: Cancer- Questions, Prevention, Symptoms, Treatments, Skin Tumors

What is cancer? Cancer is an abnormal growth of the body’s own cells. That is, normal cells in your body decide to “mutiny” and “selfishly” take over the organ or tissue they are normally a part of, with wild uncontrolled growth. Cancer occurs when…
From: http://www.cancer-drug.com/
10.
Welcome to Cate Farm’s definition of organic

Cate Farm is a certified organic family farm growing produce and medicinal herbs on land farmed since 1793.
From: http://www.catefarm.com/pages/organic.

And “FDA organic” is even worse, with 4 out 10 hits dealing with Viagra. If you’re Asking Jeeves, no wonder you’re not having much luck. :wink:

13

And I do have one big tip for General Questions.

Only answer questions that you’re absolutely sure of, or if it’s a WAG, or if you’re not sure, then for heaven’s sake, say so. Say, “This is just a WAG”, or, “I may be wrong on this, but…” This saves you from having to clean egg off your face quite so often.

Try to stick to stuff that you actually know a little bit about. It’s hard to give good cites for things if you don’t really have a clue what they’re talking about. How do you know if it’s a “good” cite, or if it’s really a message from the Lunatic Fringe? If you don’t really know anything about quarks, how do you know that that long involved explanation that seems to answer the OP’s question is the correct one, and not the winner of last year’s American Physics Society booby prize for “Most Demented Theory”?

I have learned the hard way that there are certain topics that I don’t know quite as much about as I think I do, so I just generally stay out of those threads altogether.

14

Shoot, I should just go to BED… :rolleyes:

Anyway, remember–just because it’s posted on the Web doesn’t mean it’s gospel. It just means that somebody felt like posting it on his Web page, for whatever reason. And there are a LOT of winners of this year’s booby prize for “Most Demented Theory” out there, and they’ve ALL got websites.

Ask yourself, “Why is this posted? Does this person have an axe to grind by posting this? Does he have an agenda?” This will save you from ever embarrassing yourself by citing Art Bell or Kent Hovind.

And if ya wanna know who they are, you can practice your Google skills.

Bookmark that puppy. :wink: Me, I’ve got it set as my Home Page, so all I gotta do is click the house.

One more hint: Open a New Window (or two) and keep Google running in it. This saves you from having to use the Back button and go back and forth to reload the thread. Sometimes you lose hits when you try to do that, or the thread.

15

Thanks a lot for all the tips. I do know some of the searching tricks, I just always find myself reading trhoguh pages for relevant results (although I guess that’s inevitable).

I do use google and not Ask Jeeves most of the time.

Look for me in GQ! (sometimes :))

16

Another wonderful thing about Duck Duck Goose is that she chooses examples well to buttress her points and clearly explains them. I love this example she provided, it’s one of the things I was trying to explain earlier, to less success. In this case you have to make the leap from paper folding, two fairly common words, to origami, which is a much more specialized word.

17

I had to just mention this - try asking Jeeves “are you gay?”

Obviously so many people have tried this they provide an answer, of sorts…

Try it and see!