I’m looking at an old almanac from 2007, which gives seat belt use data by state. At that time, lowest use was in Mississippi (60.8%), Massachusetts, Kentucky, Arkansas, South Dakota, Kansas and South Carolina (around 69%). Highest use reported by the NHTSA was in Hawaii and Washington (95.3%).
As an emergency physician, I know seat belts save lives. And I know vaccines do as well. There have been some threads on seat belts before - why not in school buses? Do these laws infringe on personal choice? How do airplane ones differ, and do these help? Have attitudes on use (or penalty incentives) caused a change on attitudes (at that time, there was 76% support)?
My questions:
Is there a link between seat belt non-use and vaccine hesitancy?
Has use in practice improved over 15 years?
Do you think these laws impede freedom?
Is there a reason for difference in use between certain states, now or at that time?
Nothing? Use is still low in New Hampshire and Massachusetts. Having driven in Boston, it reminds me that driving in Canada is easier than most places. During The Big Dig, that place was way worse than driving in Montreal. Don’t these states have, or enforce, belting laws?
This wouldn’t surprise me; I could see both being reactions to a “you can’t tell me what to do” mindset, as well as an “I don’t trust those so-called experts” mindset. I have no idea if there’s data to support that, however.
There is probably also some level of correlation with educational levels in those states, versus those with higher seat-belt use.
(Regarding seat belts in school buses: my understanding is that the argument against them is that seat belts work well, if used properly, and it would require the bus driver to manage the seat belt use of dozens of kids, to make sure that they put them on properly, and keep them on properly.)
Well, we could when we had 10K active users. Now with just 1K of us, it takes a little longer than it used to.
I know you’re just the messenger here, but that’s pretty obviously someone deciding on their conclusion: “I hate seatbelts” and back-rationalizing towards a reason, any reason, no matter how transparently half-assed.
If 10% of the kids wore their seatbelts correctly because of how Mom taught them, that’s 10% of kids riding more safely; just 90% to go. The argument that it’s better to endanger all of the kids rather than just some of them beggars belief. Mindful of the forum I’ll not say more.
Basically because it’s a solution in search of a problem.
Unlike cars, school buses are very large and very heavy. Fatalities in school buses are extremely rare. Sure, once in a while a bus will end up getting creamed by a semi or something like that. But for the most part, kids aren’t getting killed in school bus accidents. And let’s face it, if a bus gets creamed by a semi, those seat belts probably aren’t really going to help much, if at all.
So here’s the deal. Go down to ye ol local school board, and convince them that they need to spend tens of thousands of dollars to put seat belts on their buses, knowing that there is a very good chance that there won’t ever be a single life saved by them.
Seat belts on buses is one of those things that intuitively seems like a good idea, but it’s fixing a problem that isn’t really a problem.
Airplanes take off and land at speeds significantly faster than school buses drive, so if a plane skids off the runway and crashes into a field, it’s a much bigger deal than if a school bus skids off of the road. Comparing airplane seat belts to school buses is definitely an apples to pumpkins comparison. School buses also don’t tend to throw you into the air if they ride through an air pocket. A plane, on the other hand, will easily throw you out of your seat and smash your head against the overhead storage compartment. When the pilot turns on the fasten seat belt sign, it’s a good idea to do it.
I personally would separate the school bus issue out from your other issues. Seat belts on school buses is a completely different issue and has nothing to do with attitudes or freedoms.
(ETA: Ninja’d! Oh, well, I typed it all out so I’m posting it anyway)
Just eyeballing, correlation doesn’t look all that strong, and I guess enforcement is a big confounding variable.
For example, Massachusetts has a very low seatbelt usage rate, but a fairly high vaccination rate. In Massachusetts, however, seatbelt tickets are a secondary violation - if you get pulled over for another violation and don’t have your seatbelt clicked, that’s just an additional $25 fine. Otherwise, there is no systematic enforcement of it.
I mean, that’s one outlier. I’m sure someone will be along to graph it at some point.
I’m surprised we’re still seeing low seatbelt uses some places. Almost all cars have very annoying buzzing and beeping if a seat belt isn’t used. Yes, you can get around that, but isn’t that more trouble than just using your seatbelt?
By law the seatbelt warning only has to run for 4-8 seconds. I don’t know whether warning systems actually do go on longer than that, but I suspect many don’t.
Also school bus seats are pretty flimsy - typically just bolted down at 4 points. Shear force on steel bolts is not that zippy. You would just make larger crunchsquish missiles by strapping 2 kids to each seat.
Source, back from mid 70s to mid 80s Mom was in various posts on the local school board and the seat belt discussion happened every couple years.
One can simply buckle the belt without being inside the belt - about the only one one couldn’t do it with would be something like the auto-belting Subaru like we had once [um, 90s Impreza?]
Personally, my parents liked seatbelts, and I pretty much grew up with seat belts, and always use my seat belts. Not an issue for me, honestly although right after I had a proctocolectomy, I had enough surgical sites on my abdomen it made travelling to and from appointments seriously painfull for a month or so.
I mentioned previous threads but consider these questions answered. I am not personally looking for discussion about larger vehicles.
Why the discrepancy between states? Is the severity of punishment the main thing? I don’t know any Canadians who would admit to not using seat belts, though am sure there are always a few. Penalties are pretty substantial.
I suspect that laws, and level of enforcement/punishment, are at least part of the cause. In the U.S., seat belt laws are codified and enforced at the state or local level, not the national level.
In some states, there is “primary enforcement” (i.e., you can be stopped by a police officer if they see or suspect lack of seat belt use); in other states, there is only “secondary enforcement” (i.e., a police officer can only cite you for not using a seat belt if they have already stopped you for a different offense).
Also, it appears that, in New Hampshire, there aren’t any enforceable laws for seat belt usage.
Has use in practice improved over 15 years?
Yes. The laws regarding seat belt use have tightened during that time. I forget when seat belts first became mandatory, (the 90s maybe?), but for many years it wasn’t enforced much, and only as a secondary offense. It’s only in recent years that it’s become a primary offense. During that same period cars were equipped with more & more insistent reminders. And we added a whole generation that never knew a world where seatbelts weren’t required.
Do you think these laws impede freedom?
Not exactly, but I don’t believe the government should be dictating choices that affect only me (I’ve heard the arguments that my choices affect everyone but I object to the idea that I should live my life for the greater good which seems to be the gist of those arguments). And I correctly predicted this would become a slippery slope, originally sold as ‘just a secondary offense, no one will be pulled over for not wearing their seatbelt’, seatbelt compliance is now a primary offense. (This is important because it gives the police an excuse to stop anyone without probable cause – they just claim they couldn’t see your seatbelt). I didn’t wear a seatbelt for many years after the original mandates, but do so now because, yeah, it does save lives, I just don’t think I should be forced to ‘save my life’ if I don’t want to.
Is there a link between seat belt non-use and vaccine hesitancy?
But I’m an enthusiastic vaccine recipient – 5 so far & will cheerfully line up for #6 when it becomes available. To my knowledge there are no laws requiring everyone to get vaccinated for Covid so it’s not really equivalent. Vaccination requirements for government employees, and employees of non-government corporations aren’t laws, just another employer requirement. I’ve never understood why the people who object to employer-mandated vaccines are happy to pee in a cup for drug testing at employer demand.
The interiors of passenger automobiles are considerably safer than they were 4 or 5 decades ago, even beyond seatbelts and airbags; I believe that extends to how the seats are anchored to the floor. I wonder (and I honestly am not an expert, which is why I’m asking) if school buses, and their seats, are built differently now than they were back then, as well.
FTR: I’m happily and fully vaxxed and have no patience for anti-vaxxers and little patience for “not me” special snowflakes. And I’ve worked for the last 40 years in drug-tested environments. With my biases disclosed …
I bet you’ll find darn few who are actually happy to pee in the cup. But I suspect most everyone realizes the battle about workplace drug testing was lost 20+ years ago. So not much point in doing much more than griping a bit on the way; resistance is known to be futile. The battle about workplace mandatory vaccination is still on-going. Resistance was not futile in 2020, and even here in almost 2023 resistance is not yet futile. So folks keep it up.
But there is another significant difference between peeing in a cup and getting a vaccination.
In a word, one is taking stuff out of your body, the other is putting stuff in. Other than harming your employment, peeing in a cup can’t possibly hurt you. Vaccines are certainly a net benefit for society collectively and also a net benefit for the vast majority of people who receive them. But not everyone benefits; some small number of people have serious problems. It really does suck to be them. And from the narrow individual POV, there’s no way to truly know which group you’ll be in until after it’s too late.