Seat belts - what the hell is wrong with these parents?

The BBQ Pit
121

Hama - Huh?

My youngest son plays junior basketball, is the catcher and back up pitcher in baseball, and he plays little league football. He rides his skateboard on board ramps, we mountain bike and hike on steep cliffs, we take our raft out on fast, swift rivers, he climbs trees for hell’s sake. He’s active and a daredevil. He gets hurt. At any given time the kid has numerous cuts and bruises.

We’ve gone through stitches and black eyes, luckily no broken bones (although we did go that route when my oldest son broke his arm playing basketball). They are kids, they get hurt.

He wears sports guards when he catches or bats in baseball and pads and a helmet in football or on the skateboard ramps. He wears a life jacket when we go rafting.

He ALWAYS wears a seatbelt in the car.

A couple of years ago in Salt Lake City, a grandmother had her 4 year old sitting in the passenger seat pulling from one parking stall to another in a parking lot. She bumped into a cement barrier, hitting it hard enough to set off the airbag. She didn’t think there was any danger because she was just driving a few yards in a deserted parking lot.

The kid was killed.

You can’t wrap your kids in cotton and protect them from ever getting hurt, but there are things a responsible parent does to lesson the chance. Things like helmets and knee pads and seatbelts.

122

You’re either projecting or hallucinating. Not a single post has expressed anything like that sentiment. The vast majority, in fact, have said that we don’t want that to happen, and that’s why we’re being “sanctimonious.” We’re not trumpeting our own seat-belt habits to prove that we’re morally superior. Cartooniverse hasn’t posted seventeen thousand links to statistics that show children in car seats are about a billion times as likely to survive a collision because he wants to show off his vBcoding skills. He’s doing it because he wants to show rjung that driving any distance under any circumstances without his children properly seated and belted in is a foolish risk, with very small benefits compared to the very real possibility of a catastrophic loss.

So don’t push your “You want kids to DIE” horseshit on us. We ain’t buying.

123

Interestingly, the reason that American airbags are as dangerous as they are is because of the high proportion who refuse to buckle up. To be effective, the airbag makers are forced to try to do two jobs at once - replacement seatbelt and dashboard protection. To achieve this it is necessary for the airbag to explode outwards with quite some force.

In the UK, the wearing of seatbelts has long been extremely pervasive. As such when airbags were introduced they could be designed for just one job - protection against head trauma. UK airbags therefore explode outwards with much less force, so dramatically reducing airbag-caused injury.

Obligatory cite (warning - extremely technical study). In particular see the concluding discussion.

It is ironic that a device developed to meet the needs of a non-belt wearing populace should cause so many side-effect problems to that populace whilst being such an effective addition to safety for those who always wore belts in the first place.

pan

124

“And nobody is suggesting that someone who lets her 7-year-old ride buckled up in the front seat is a bad parent.”

“A couple of years ago in Salt Lake City, a grandmother had her 4 year old sitting in the passenger seat pulling from one parking stall to another in a parking lot. She bumped into a cement barrier, hitting it hard enough to set off the airbag. She didn’t think there was any danger because she was just driving a few yards in a deserted parking lot.
The kid was killed.”

So, apparently, Diane is.

Yes, I used the ridiculous device of taking logical ideas to illogical conclusions. Sorry about that.

125

and of course, she posted that after you made your comment.

126

Where did Diane say that the grandchild was buckled in?

127

Are you reading the same thread as the rest of us?

First of all, MsWhatsit made the statement before I wrote my post, so you assumed something before it was actually stated.

Secondly, I don’t see anywhere in my post about airbags that said ANYTHING about being a bad parent. I gave you the facts of an accident that happened in Salt Lake City a few years ago without stating my own personal opinion of the actions of the grandmother.

FWIIW, I completely understand why she would think her grandchild would be safe seatbelted in the front seat of her car and only coasting a few yards in an empty parking lot. I would have assumed the same thing. However, it took the death of her grandson to show her that it wasn’t safe. A pretty tough lesson to learn, eh?

128

I didn’t say it before, but I did in the last post. IIRC, he was buckled in (although I doubt it made any difference), however, the force of the airbag hitting him after she bumped into the cement barrier broke his neck and killed him.

The warnings on airbags and seatbelts aren’t there for shits and giggles. It may be uncommon for a fatal accident on a back street or parking lot, but cars blast throw stop signs and occassionally cars bump into cement barriers hard enough to deploy the airbag. It fucking happens.

It doesn’t take a brain surgeon to see why some of us don’t understand why a parent would take that risk when it takes all of 30 extra seconds to buckle your kid in.

129

In the first place I don’t drive for 10 hours without stopping, I implied I did but I just failed word the sentence perfectly. We stop several times at rests stops, etc. What I will not do is stop at a remote rest stop for 45 minutes while my wife rocks our child to sleep. I will let her do that on the freeway, where it would take 15 minuites by the way. The risk of being mugged at the rest stop must be factored in. You people have not perspective. True, freeways are not labeled “less chance of a accident” but I does not take a genius to realize interstate freeways are much safer than county roads. And it does not take a sign to tell you that and interstate freeway with no traffic in the middle of North Dakota in the summer is safer than a freeway in downtown Houston.

IMPORTANT: The following parameter values are rough estimates by me. Feel free to update values A, B, C, D while providing cites. Then recalculate everything and see if it changes my point. I doubt it would, but if you want to convince me I am wrong that is the only way other then pointing out logical mistakes in my formulas. The following is for a 100 mile trip all families driving the same car with equal chance of and accident everywhere.

Parameters:
A=Probability of being in an accident
B=Probability of child killed if in an accident and not wearing seatbelt.
C= Probability of child killed if in an accident and is wearing seatbelt.
D= Probability of dying at home playing with parents watching.

Parameter values:
A=0.0000006666
B=0.2
C=0.8

Families:
Family W: Cancel trip and watch child at home for cancelled driving time.
Family X: Baby in seat 100% of trip time.
Family Y: Baby in seat 98% of trip time.
Family Z: Baby in seat 0% of trip time.

Risk of baby dying during driving time:
W= E = 1.0E-18
X=1 * A * B= 1.3332E-07=0.000000133
Y= (0.98) A * B + (0.02) A * C= 2.3731E-07=0.000000237
Z= 1 * A * C= 5.3328E-07=0.000000533

The “good” 100% buckling family increased their child’s risk from 1E-18 to 1.3E-7 by taking the trip. The “good” family is putting the child not at twice the risk, not three times the risk, but X/W=237 BILLION times more at risk by not canceling the trip! The family who takes the baby out for 2% of the time increases the risk from 0.000000133 to 0.000000237 or putting the baby at 1.787 times the risk of the good family. According to the safety fascists, the trip itself is apparently worth putting the baby 237 Billion times more at risk but the baby’s comfort is not worth 1.787 times more risk. I would disagree.

Anyone who thinks a Lincoln Navigator is not safer than a Geo Metro is an idiot. (This is the pit after all). For Family Z, a Navigator safety benefit would probably not outweigh their no car seat safety cost. I never said it would as some implied. I only claimed that if a family like Family X was driving a Geo Metro and Family Y was driving a Lincoln Navigator Baby Y would have less chance of dying on the trip

By the way, we hardly ever took our baby anywhere by car for the first few months of his life, never to the grocery store for example. We took him for walks in the stroller every day but cars are too dangerous for infants even in a car seat. We care deeply about his safety, but we will not be irrational about it. To suggest Family Y should not be allowed to breed is keeping with the spirit of the pit but is othwise is irrational.

130

In the above thread Paramater D=E=1.0E-18

131

the thing you’re not factoring in to your ‘equation’ sail is :

amount of guilt one would feel if the worst happened and the child died because I simply found it easier to not keep them buckled in a seatbelt while in the car

for me, that factor outweighs all else. Obviously it doesn’t for you.

132

Also “wearing seatbelt” means “in carseat”.

133

Sail, you can put your numbers and calculations out there all you want, but what it all comes down to is that you are willing to risk your child’s life, no matter how small that risk, for the sake of your convienience.

134

my grandfather, who will not give up his drivers license, has narcolepsy and has fallen asleep at the wheel while driving 80 mph on I-90.

Where does that fit into your equation sail? And I’d like to see the mugging stats for rest areas :rolleyes:

j

135

Not just the mugging stats, but the stats of a child’s life ending due to the mugging.

136

And ANOTHER THING. I think maybe all of our points can be summed up in…in the time it takes you to justify to us that letting your kid decide where he/she sits in the car is ok…you could have just said,

“Sheesh. I guess you guys are right…I’m going to do my best to buckle them up GIVEN THE OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE THAT I SHOULD”

Instead you put together sixty page logic theorems that you can actually just use to bore your child to sleep instead of posting them here.

j

137

:eek:

oh
my
god.
That is the worst thing I have yet to read on this thread.

zoinks.

you can’t do anything?!!

maybe remove a spark plug or two?

I realize he’s a grown man, but SOMETHING should be done.

As much as I am against Rjung and Sail’s reasoning, I don’t see how THAT is any less deserving of everyone’s ire.

how could your family live with the guilt if Grandfather kills a person?

(I am sorry, but you touched on a subject that I froth at the mouth on.)

138

Wring,
I will list for you choices I could make preceded by my level guilt if my child died because of them.
70-- Let him ride a bike
65-- Install a pool
65-- Never used car seat
40-- Decided to let him ride with me (with him in the car seat) to the store so my wife could vacuum at home.
40–Hired a baby sitter to see a movie (babysitter kills him)
5-- accident during the <1% of time he is not in car seat.
1-- Tornado if I choose a house with no basement.

Diane,
Every parent risks their child’s life every day for the sake of convenience. Ever see a mother at the grocery store with her child? She is risking that child’s life. Rather than shop at night with the father at home with the child or rather than hire a baby sitter she drover her child to the store. A more responsible family would have one adult watch the child at home while the other shopped.

The ONLY way then to distinguish between responsible and irresponsible behavior is to calculate the additional risk of that behavior vs. benefit of the behavior. Many of you are discounting the benefit but you fail to see how tiny the additional risk is especally in light of other things “reponsable” parents do.

139

True story:

My dad was driving on a long distance trip by himself and pulled into a rest area so he could nap in the back seat. Two guys somehow managed to get into the front seat whereupon Dad sat up, startling the two intruders who then ran off.

Yes, bad things can happen in rest areas but if everyone stays in the car while the baby is rocked you can get the fuck out of there if necessary. During that 15 minutes on the highway it only takes one inattentive driver to wreak havoc. Yeah, there is only a small chance that the unthinkable will happen but if it does I hope you can live with the consequences.

140

Baboon, believe me, it’s something our entire family fights about. He’s a stubborn, crabby man…and the worst part is, he has a stubborn, crabby doctor in his pocket, and basically pays him to tell everyone it’s ok for him to drive…in so many words.

The doctor tells everyone “if he feels ok driving, then he can drive” Which is a load of bullshit.

He is ok if someone is WITH HIM talking the whole time, keeping him awake (even blocks from home) but he’ll SNEAK OUT at like 5:00 am and drive. Hiding keys? He finds 'em. Take away the car? They need it. My grandma doesn’t know how to drive.
It’s a nightmare.

j