Has it been determined that he is unable to move back in with his mother, which is where he was living before he moved overseas? If so, he’s not really homeless.
Esprix
Well, I agree with the OP and I agree with the Moderator. The thread was taking a turn for the worse, but I also appreciate both sides of the story.
I immediately summoned my husband thinking that this may be a situation where we should try and help out. He was going to call an old friend of his that owns an Advertising Firm in New York to see if he could help. But then I read on and realized that this individual has a track record of taking advantage of people who were generous from this board.
When we refer people to others we know, trust and love, we take it seriously. I am personally glad that we were given all the information so we could make an informed decision.
This doesn’t belong in the MPSIMS thread. TubaDiva mentioned that he is a native of NYC. If that is so, and if he does not have a support system already in place in NYC, it seems quite possible to me that Billdo is not the first to have this sort of experience. In which case (also as mentioned there) it might be best* for him to make a fresh start somewhere else. Just a thought.
Oh, um, well, yeah, actually that would help a bit. If he’s got some kind of support system in place already, then that changes things.
I read Billdo’s post as “no, don’t help him, let him starve,” but now it seems I was hasty in rushing to judgment. As Lissa says, if this is a track record of taking advantage of generous Dopers, then that’s certainly germane to the discussion.
I think I’ll just shut up now.
Shayna, your points are well-made and well-taken.
However, I have to say I feel you’re on ironic ground when you criticize Billdo about “tone.” There are many people on the boards that seem to struggle (perhaps nobly, perhaps not) with their tone. I’ve watched many a simple disagreement turn downright nasty, unpleasant, unkind, and downright meanspirited. And I regret to say that I think you’re one of the ones who has trouble with this.
Registering your own feelings on this matter is exactly within the spirit of this thread. Admonishing Billdo about his “tone,” however, suddenly robs your very reasonable post of some credibility.
Um, yeah, I got that. And I disagree that it was his place to do so. I thought it was meanspirited and intentionally hurtful. He had a personal experience with him outside this forum and used that to malign this man’s entire character. For all I know, he’s completely right. But for all I know, he could be completely wrong, too.
And this is what bothers me about Billdo’s post. We don’t know this individual has a “track record” of taking advantage of generous Dopers. We know of one incident where we’ve so far heard only one side of the story. So now no one’s going to want to help him because he mooched a burger and fries without the proper thanks? What, is he unemployable for the rest of his life because of this one stupid incident in a bar nearly a year ago?
Respectfully, Cranky, I do not think Shayna’s posting reputation is relevant at ALL here. Her points were well-taken, and civil response and continuation of conversation is 100% possible. It may be ironic, but I just don’t think her points (even if I disagree with them here) should be taken less seriously for it.
You could not have better summed up my entire reason for distrusting Tuba to act quickly enough/appropriately in this case.
I have, to the best of my recollection, never posted something meanspirited or nasty in MPSIMS. Arguments that occur on the board, about discussions that are taking place on the boards, in the proper forum are entirely different from creating an atmosphere of ugliness in the wrong forum against a person for something that occurred off the board, especially when they aren’t even directly involved in the thread in question. If you ever find me taking a personal pot-shot at someone in MPSIMS, feel free to call me on it. Until then, your attempt to liken any arguments I’ve gotten into with people in the Pit with this situation is completely offbase.
I don’t think letting the rest of us know all of the facts regarding a person in need translates to “kicking the guy when he’s down.”
I only have so much money, time, and emotional energy to give to charities or expend in charitable acts. I like to know that my efforts are directed where they are likely to do the most good. I don’t know MONKEYMULE at all, on Board or off, but let’s take this as a working scenario: MM asks for help. I help him. He takes advantage of me. I later find out that BILLDO, whom I know (on the Boards only) and respect, knew MM would probably take advantage of me if I helped him, but didn’t say anything. Result: I’m pissed at BILLDO. Depending on the extent of advantage taken, maybe very pissed.
A lot of people are in trouble. There’s an argument to be made that they all deserve help. But when you know a person in trouble may in fact be trouble for your friends, why does your “obligation” not to “kick him when he’s down” outweigh your obligation to honestly give a heads up to your friends that all may not be what it seems? Even if I was faced with a poor, downtrodden individual who “just needed a place to sleep,” I wouldn’t give it to them if I thought they would be rude to me, or steal from me, or make me feel unsafe, or ultimately refuse to leave. Which is NOT to say that MM has done, or would do, any of those things. But people act like "a place to sleep is no big deal – when it’s my place to sleep, it is a big deal.
So with all due respect, CAJUN MAN, I think it was unfair of you to implicitly interpret BILLDO’s post as kicking MONKEYMULE, as opposed to trying to warn some other NYC Dopers. That being said, I also think BILLDO could have posted something a little less embarrassing to MM, like “I have some more information on this issue that may be important; please e-mail me if you’d like details.” But it’s entirely possible BILLDO didn’t want to have to answer 100 e-mails, either.
I just think it’s a really unfortunate situation. I’m sorry MONKEYMULE is between a rock and a hard place, and I admire the impulses of those who would like to help him. But I think BILLDO also acted with good impulses in trying to let people know that this “favor” may have strings attached. The only people I think are behaving badly here are those calling him a “prick” or an “asshole” for trying to do the right thing by those of the rest of us whom he considers friends.
I hope MM gets the help that he needs to get back on his feet, and I also hope he now understands that taking advantage of people can have long-ranging unpleasant consequences.
[expressing an opinion]
See, this is why I feel ALL Doper-charity threads are a bad idea. The charities are based almost entirely on popularity, acquaintance with mods/admins, and general board opinion towards the person in need; it can very quickly get ugly, as we’ve seen in this case. Even when it doesn’t, one wonders why this thread is a Sticky, that thread isn’t; this thread gets closed, that one doesn’t; this thread gets mod/admin attention, and that one doesn’t.
The threads also encourage people to post and announce that they’ve sent money, or whatnot. Sending money is great, but what’s the use of telling the boards you did so? The charity threads can become popularity contests of who’s helping out the most, and who’s “being a jerk” by pointing out maybe this particular recipient isn’t worthy of charity. Ugly.
Now, charity’s great. Helping out Dopers is great and I congratulate anyone who has done so, and I’m glad this medium (the Internet, vbulletin, this community) allows us to help each other. I wish there were more of it. But as the situation stands on these boards, it looks to me like a popularity contest, badly administered, haphazardly effective, all very highschoolish; in short, not worthy of these boards. We ought either to have a System, and Rules, or else have a taboo on all “Dopers, ___ needs your help” threads.
[/expressing]
SHAYNA –
So who’s the arbiter of when the rest of us are entitled to know? What’s a sufficient “track record,” and who decides? It seems to me that BILLDO thought he had relevant information and he shared it with the rest of us. We’re all adults, we’re all able to read the linked thread and decide, “Heck, that’s not so bad. I’ve done worse on an off evening.” So if that’s your opinion, by all means help the guy.
We’re leaving stuff out because what’s already been mentioned should be sufficient to give a heads up to folks who may prefer knowing such things before helping. Suffice it to say his move to England (complete with wedding plans) took place just end of April 2004, and that other incidents had taken place prior to and post the “stupid incident in a bar” last year.
I repeat, though. Only a heads up was intended for my part. The situation is clearly sticky and obviously I myself don’t have all the facts. I just think Tuba should never have posted that thread based on friendly chatting. As Lissa said, when you recommend someone for a job (and I might add or even invite them into your home), you should damned well know more about them than oh he sounds so nice on chat.
you asked for clarification of rules, but posted vs. email, so will add my observations.
- The actions of the ‘moocher’ in teh original Pit thread - well, I don’t blame you for being pissed at the time, and understand why/how you felt about the circumstances. however:
a. the moocher is apparently younger type (as in yes, old enough to specifically know better about mooching, but younger enough that he fits in w/my observations of my son’s crowd, where whoever has $$ pays what they can, and other folks are taken in, may treat at another time/place if fortunes change. I note that they don’t seem all that inclined to think in terms of “I had2 burgers and fries, but Fred there had 5, so he should pay more” This doesn’t absolve Moocher (please when quoting this to argue w/me, note this phrase), but is an observation I’ve made about some folks in that particular age grouping.
b. The original pit thread at no time mentioned the fact that it was a doper and at a dopefest. You mention this and say that it was intentional, as a way of calling his actions to his attention and so on. I would think that the same sort of ‘calling attention’ tactic could have been achieved by email, w/o the ‘we’re all talking about you behind your back to everyone else here’ feel to it. And that, was indeed, tacky, in my book. As a matter of fact, I believe there has been some discussion on this board that if you had a problem w/another doper in real life, in chat, in livejournal, that you not bring your gripe to the board. while moocher sinned IRL, that thread (w/it’s relevant disclosures now) are not your personal high point, either (again, IMHO) - talking about ‘some one’ but not noting that you knew for a fact and intended that they read about it as if it were an anonymous person you’d met IRL.
c. The scene in the original Pit thread, while I understand why you didn’t say anything to them at the time, you also didn’t give them a chance to know you found their actions objectionable. I know ‘common sense’ and all, but there’s also this whole other concept “how am I supposed to know you were bothered by it if you don’t tell me”. If you told him later and he said something to the effect of ‘sucks to be you’ that’s a whole other thing.
- Now, as to the thread that Tuba did - she asked for advice for someone who’d done a stupid thing and needed advice. I see no problem w/folks offering advice about where to live where to find a job. however
a. as has been noted, dopers are very generous and often offer more than what is asked.
b. and specifically the whole job thing - I"d really be pissed off if I helped some one get a job using my contacts if they turned out to be a schmuck. So I guess, if a doper was gonna ask for help on some one else’s behalf for help w/a job, I’d hope that we weren’t being asked to essentially burn bridges on behalf of someone not particularly good at making decisions. (‘here’s a swell job’… great, thanks a lot. ohhhhhh I’ve got a chance at a swell job in Hawaii, dude, gotta go).
But what of your obligations/desires etc to answer said appeal for help? should we check all of our IRL knowledge at the door when posting here? no, especially remembering clustertrainfucks like that whole what the hell was her name - lilsomebody or other w/the dying child able to swoop in and post only during shift change at the ICU (I paraphrase, but will bet someone will remember the gig).
BUt, if as it seems here to be the case, that you knew stuff about the RL situation (ie that he’d packed up all his cares and woes to go chase love across the ocean w/o a back up plan - as happens not infrequently among folks in that general age group - not to say that all younger folks yaddy yaddy yaddy), that may change her perception of the issue for appeal, I think the best thing to have done would have been email her specifically.
all in all, not the dope world’s finest moments.
Thank you, Cajun Man. I understand the need for preemptive warnings, and am glad to know that my post was not the cause for a specific warning. I appreciate the swift clarification.
The remainder of the exchange in this thread has, as always, been interesting and instructive.
I don’t know what Tuba based her post on, but like I said before, if she was short valuable or pertinent information I think it should’ve been provided to her via email instead of intentionally embarrassing the guy. But maybe that’s because I have had many opportunities to communicate with her privately and have always found her to be prompt in replying and fair in her actions.
Obviously reasonable people disagree with this approach (emailing her privately), either thinking it’s noble to offer personal incidents publicly, as some kind of measure of a member’s worthiness, or in feeling relieved that they have said information in order to make a decision about helping someone. Personally, I think it’s not enough to go by, but on the other hand, I never jump in wallet first to help every person who’s needed it here, either, so I’m less likely to be someone who would be inadvertently hurt by someone who would intentionally screw me over (as you and Billdo imply would happen in this case). Maybe if I were a New Yorker who was ready to offer him my couch, I might feel differently. I’m just still squicked out by the way it was handled, that’s all.
(P.S. Thank you for your support above. It is much appreciated.)
Not really - he was a newish participant to these events and would not have had any reason to assume that we don’t try to split bills based on who ordered the $40 or $15 entree. Also, at 23 I would still have been mortified if I behaved like that. But, that’s sort of a moot point.
Also not really. Billdo did not call attention to his actions in that thread specifically because we KNOW that off boards IRL stuff should be kept there. It is however a behavioral pattern that many are familiar with, given responses in that thread, and that was one of his intents for posting it.
Additionally, the IRL stuff was mentioned here ONLY because Tuba TOOK this to an IRL situation. Otherwise it would never have needed to be mentioned at all. And I repeat, I personally think that it DID need to be mentioned, given the circumstances. Obviously some disagree, and that’s fine.
He WAS emailed, so he fully knew that the Pit thread was about him, and he fully knew that the NY dopers were upset with his behavior. No response.
You’re kidding, right?
Perhaps I was just suffering from a recent rash of folks who don’t answer emails punctually, and given the fact that Tuba might have more reason to believe recent chats with him than personal accounts from a total stranger, I did not trust her to be super prompt and fair. Apologies for that - but I am STILL of the opinion that she should never have posted such a thread to begin with.
Hopefully this will turn into some kind of SDMB sticky. Sending emails to friends based on a personal friend who is in dire need is one thing (which I completely encourage, because we’ve all been in tight spots that were brought on through no fault of our own), but posting a public request for help based on friendly chat is just not right. And here I’m setting all past MM issues aside.
What, you feel the request that you explain your feelings is inappropriate?
Please explain why you feel that way.