That was directed at CAJUN MAN, and, lest I be misunderstood —> 
This is what concerns me and where we disagree, wring. E-mailing Tuba might take several hours, during which time Dopers could vouch for whatshisname…Monkeymule? to bosses/contacts, could buy plane tickets, could e-mail money, etc.
I see this as no different than citing a Snopes debunking following a well-meaning attempt at getting a group to collect pop-can tops for a kidney machine for some dying kid. If someone started such a thread, wouldn’t it be appropriate to introduce the Snopes thing then and there, rather than e-mailing the OP? The only difference is that here the stakes are much higher than pop-tops. We’re talking the possibility of real money, real damage to one’s rep.
I don’t know any of the participants involved, and I’m in the wrong area of the country anyway, so I’m not taking sides, I don’t know who’s right. But I can say that if this was in my area of the country, I’d absolutely want to know other’s experiences with the person in question so I could make an informed decision on what to do.
Fenris
For the peanut gallery element, of which I am a card carrying member by default (Massholes always are, it comes with residency) I thought Billdo’s first post was all right, a few others started stretching it, and the thread showed serious signs of derailment. Present people with information, ok. But whether you bitch or not, he still needs help, and we still need to make up our own minds. The best idea, barring emailing tuba, would have been a thread, maybe here, presenting a different side, with a link in the MPSIMS thread and letting us make up our own minds.
Erm…I meant to quote the last part of what you wrote–about e-mailing. Which would have made much more sense than the part I actually did quote.
:smack:
To reply to Wring’s second point, at the time of Billdo’s thread, I e-mailed MM (after substantial thought and much input from other Dopers), letting him know in a supportive, I-know-this-is-hard-to-read tone that he’d annoyed folks, but that All Would Be Forgiven next time if he bought a round of drinks or something. And I heard nothing.
I later learned that others had tried to send similar messages on prior occasions, without any acknowledgement, let alone an apology.
Pucette you’re emphasizing my point. The origninal pit thread was placed here, the person being talked about was alerted but not named. How tacky can you get? “Here, dude, we’re describing what you did, and folks who may interact w/you will get to slam you w/out knowing that it’s you” fun for all, right?
How on earth is that any different from any number of shitty scenes in high schools around the world where one group is talking about ‘some one we met’ w/a larger group (only some of whom know who’s really being talked about) all for the ‘benefit’ of specifically letting yet another person know how shitty we think they acted.
and suggesting that it wasn’t really the same thing as taking a RL issue w/a doper onto the boards simply 'cause you didn’t name them publically, although every single person who’d been there knew who he was talking about, as did, I’m sure others y’all emailed - well really, that’s lame, isn’t it? (and, in fact has been done IIRC and folks got yelled at for it when the object of the Pit thread came in busting ass)
Fenris - I understand where you’re coming from - I agree that takes quite a while - how about a comprimise of “remember folks that if you’re vouching for someone re a job, your reputation is also at stake, you should probably get to know a bit more about them” while emailing Tuba. Re: offers of $ etc - well I guess that gets us all back to 'how does the Dope wish to handle requests for specific financial assistance" and I’d suggest y’all get something in the works. For me - I’ve helped sometimes and not other times, based on what I could afford to do without, and if I personally cared about the situation. I’m torn on this - for every moocher personified, there’s also Cristi’s kids for example.
Uh-oh… We disagree again!
I see this as being more of a kindness–“I’m so pissed I’ve gotta vent, but I’m not gonna “out” another Doper as an asshole…but I am gonna let him know so that he can respond if he chooses or make amends.”
Were I the poster being pitted, I’d have gone in and said “Mea culpa. Whatshisname (Billdo?) was talking about me and trying to spare my feelings, but when it comes down to it I fucked up bigtime. Let me take all of you to dinner or something to apologize.”
I can’t speak for CM, of course, but that thread was starting to reek of trainwreck when he posted that warning. A very mild warning not directed at anyone in particular, at that.
Considering how many other people saw it coming, is a little bump back to MPSIMS territory before it got out of control really that uncalled for, or even surprising?
Wring, I understand your concerns. However, at the time I thought it better for all concerned (particularly MonkeyMule) if I complained about the behavior without naming him. The alternative was calling him out by name in the Pit. I knew at the time that OxyMoron had e-mailed him, and thought if he wanted to apologize privately, he could by e-mail to him or me. Had he sent a private apology, I would have posted in the thread that the offender (still unnamed) had apologized. If, on the other hand, he wanted to discuss the matter pubically, he was free to do so in the thread. Instead of doing either, he simply went to ground, maintaining total silence for some time.
Yes, the people there knew who I was talking about, but they already knew of MonkeyMule’s misbehavior, and there were just a few that put two and two together and asked privately whether my pit thread was related to manhattan’s retirement party that had just occurred. However, as demonstrated by the people who expressed surprise that the earlier Pit thread was Doper-related, this had the effect of preserving MonkeyMule’s reputation as to this matter until after he endorsed’s TubaDiva’s request on his behalf, at which time I thought the matter should be brought into the public eye.
At all times, I publically posted under my own name, and MonkeyMule knew very well what we were talking about. I left it up to him how to respond, and he chose not to. I had no problem with that, hoping that he would either eventually come to some event and try to buy a round or two to make it up, or to stay out of our hair. But when he came around again asking for favors, it was just too much.
I can’t speak for Cajun Man or any other mod but a lot of general housekeeping is impressionistic, especially in non-Pit fora. By “general housekeeping” I mean monitoring the tone and direction of a thread. I hadn’t caught any of this particular situation, but in all fairness it’s not unusual at all to post general reminders in IMHO when discussions start becoming heated or personal in tone. As I understand it, the same general protocol applies in MPSIMS, etc. as well.
It really is a balancing act. We monitor thread drift to an extent but when and how we intervene is up for grabs. Gently steering the discussion back onto track is respectful to the OP. Waiting for a thread to find its own level may entail specific individual warnings and/or moving the thread to another forum, but of course only after the damage has been done. It’s just a question of when and how to intervene.
I suspect Cajun Man was referring to his general impression–feeling–that the thread was starting to get too rough for MSPISMS. The alternative would have been to 1. lock it down altogether or 2. move it to the Pit; possibly–probably?–options that nobody sought, including Bildo.
Just my WAG.
Veb
I feel compelled to add my opinion that **Cajun Man ** was way out of place suggesting that Billdo’s post was not appropriate for the MPSIMS forum.
At no point was Billdo a jerk, in fact he was being helpful to those who might wish to help, but don’t know the other parts of the story.
Although **Cajun Man ** was not actually a jerk himself, I think he went over the line in his moderating duty and therefore deserves this pit thread and perhaps a firm reprimand, as well.
But Cajun Man never specifically mentioned Billdo’s post or Bildo in his warning, he just said
I think the dogpiling onto MM called for that warning. Maybe Bildo’s original post was fine and it was the subsequent “me tooing” that pushed it over the line. In any case I don’t see that Bildo was particularly called out by Cajun Man, just that Bildo’s post was the first one that knocked the thread in that direction.
I want to give a nod to Billdo. Not only did I not think he was out of line in his posts in MPSIMS, I thought it was rather brave to speak up and share his experience. I know him only through his posts, but he doesn’t strike me as an overly confrontational sort. We all make mistakes, but anyone offering to help is entitled to understand the risks they are taking. His only purpose was to offer information, that we, being adults, are free to process as we wish.
Consider the alternative path this request could have taken. Everyone who had a negative experience could have stayed silent. Others with good experiences with MM might have posted their encouragement. The problem comes when people offer to help. An offer to help comes with real world consequences. If there is a question of character the potential consequences could be a real bitch.
I don’t live in New York, but if I did I could imagine talking my boss into giving MM a chance with a good job that had long term potential. I would be putting my reputation on the line, because without my endorsment the referral wouldn’t mean much. This is assuming that the level of help he is asking for is more than just giving an address where he can send a resume. If that was the extent of the assistance, he would do just as well to read the paper. If he is the type to flake out on committments, or is not trustworthy in some way, my reputation is tarnished.
Similarly, I could offer him a place to crash. That offer comes with an implied expectation that the crasher will work like hell to establish themselves and make their stay as short and as pleasant as possible. No one wants to have to eject someone from their house, and that is a real possiblity. This goes double in New York where saving for first and last month’s rent takes some real discipline.
Whether she likes it or not, TubaDiva’s endorsment of MM’s plea carries a lot of weight. Without contrasting views MM’s good character is implied. He may still be a fine person and the incident Billdo talks about may be an anomaly. I would hope that it would be understood in the future that if you ask for help you are opening yourself up to criticism from those you have stiffed in the past.
I would hope that Billdo knows that there are some who would counter claims that he should was in the wrong. Specifically Munch’s rather histrionic claim that:
Please spare me from that drivel. We all reap what we sow, Billdo gave more than fair warning in this case.
Thank you, Veb.
With all due respect, Jodi, my response to Banger was off the cuff due to the fact that I had already responded to Billdo’s inquiry and felt it blatantly obvious why I felt that way. I issued a general (folks) preemptive warning. I did not reprimand Billdo or any specific individual.
I hope this further clarifies my intentions.
I’ve misled you if I made you believe that I was likening your Pit behavior with Billdo’s post. That was not my point.
It would seem I also missed yours.
I consider all this moot since the principals seem to have cleared up their questions.
Fenris, BIldo w/a/d/r - I believe you both are seriously wrong in this matter - rule long has been “disagreement w/poster on line at SDMB, take 'em to the pit, disagreement w/poster IRL, take it to email, NOT here” period. and for excellent reasons. Remember certain folks who’ve had personal relationships that blew up? I recall (but not enough detail to find 'em) threads where one poster posted a rant about “Some one who did something shitty IRL”, describing the event, the otehr poster comes in all guns blazing and the thread gets closed w/admonishments to all to take it to email.
and when a poster posts a thread complaining about some one IRL who did something shitty, we assume that the OP has disclosed pertinant info about the event and that we don’t have another source of info (ie, we pretty well assume that the asshole who cut you off in traffic isn’t Polycarp for example).
so, this guy spends an evening w/folks thinks all are having agood time, some time later finds out, 'cause of emails linking him to the thread that not only wasn’t everyone having a good time, but people were pissed off at MM and tlaking about him behind his back.
again, there is no doubt in my mind that pitting a poster here over something they did IRL even if you don’t mention them by name but post sufficient detail so that they know you’re talking about them (as well as other folks who were there), all strikes me as ‘not nice behavior’.
would a passing mod like to answer “is it ok to pit another poster over something that happens off the board, as long as you don’t name them”??? while we’re asking for clarification
I would agree with this except (and it’s a BIG except) the fact that this irl disagreement had a very relevant bearing on this board. Billdo didn’t just randomly open a thread to insult MM, you know - he didn’t bring the matter here - a thread was started by another party asking for help for this person.
We (the Doper community, specifically NY dopers) were asked, by an Admin, to do whatever we could to be supportive, citing that this person had “no job, no place to stay” and closed with the line “I appreciate you all for what you’ve been and done and for what I hope you do.”
It’s not a secret that this community has shown themselves to be generous and open-hearted to a fault. And the way that thread was worded, I could see another gracious display of that generousity to be potentially forthcoming. I don’t think there is anything wrong with presenting a bit of character background. Billdo didn’t name call, or behave in a jerk-ish manner, he simply said, hey, here’s a little more about this person that you may want to consider before sticking your neck out. I don’t think that’s wrong, in fact, I’d say he had a moral obligation to give a forewarning.
For example: Say I lived in NY and had a contact in the publishing world and put my reputation on the line to ask for a favour to help this person out based on Tuba’s good words. Then they guy acts as he has in the past and royally screws up. I’m the one, not him, that will be hurt by that. I find out later than multiple people had multiple bad experiences with this person. Had I known in advance, I might have not put myself on the line.
I think it’s all well and good to give people a second chance, but, personally, I’m not so inclined to give a stranger the benefit of the doubt on a second chance. I save those for close friends and family. Which leads me to my question: if he’s a native NY’er, where’s his family? Why aren’t they putting him up so he doesn’t have to stay at a men’s shelter (which is what Tuba is thoughtfully trying to help him avoid)? I am not known to be cruel or uncharitible, however, those questions definitely would raise some red flags for me.
Mauvaise - so, what was the explanation/rationale for the ORIGINAL pit thread (which is what I"m referencing). the one started months ago, before Tuba started her thread?
that’s my point.
If Tuba posted it publicly, it’s anyone’s “place” to reply. That’s what this Board is for, after all. Whether or not it was “meanspirited an intentionally hurtful” is obviously up for debate.
And his experience happened at a Dopefest, which is, officially or not, an extension of this message board. Again, I don’t see bringing up the incident as inappropriate in any way.
For some people, that is enough for them not to give someone a hand for fear of it being bitten. It seems encumbent upon Tuba to provide the whole picture if she’s going to ask people to give him a hand, IMHO.
Not unemployable, but perhaps not someone to recommend for employment yourself.
All just my opinion.
Esprix
BERKUT, VEB, CAJUN, that was a joke. See, someone asked him to explain why he felt a certain way, which was rather a dumb question IMO (“I felt it was going badly.” “Why did you feel that way?” “Because it was going badly.”), so I in turn asked him to explain why he felt that way . . . oh, nevermind.
CAJUN MAN, I’m not second guessing your post – well, except for the part where you implied an ill motive to BILLDO, like kicking the guy when he’s down. But your decision to moderate as you did, no. Moderating is IMO a mostly subjective, judgment-calling, zero-sum game. Asking a mod to defend a moderating decision when they’ve already explained it (“I didn’t like where I thought this was going,” or words to that effect) is a hair-splitting, navel-gazing waste of time. (And here I’m not talking about people like BILLDO, who request an explanation/clarification, but people who, after one has been given, ask you to explain further or again because your initial explanation is not ITO good enough.) I don’t know how you guys do it, frankly. If I were a mod, my motto would be “never apologize, never explain.” Which probably goes a fair way to explaining why I’m not a mod.
Anyway, I was kidding. I even included a smiley for pete’s sake.