Eventually, sure. Or in another country now, it might make sense. But are you suggesting that in America, in 2020, white students are underrepresented at the school because of prejudice against them?
It is the result of systemic racism keeping black and hispanic parents from having the means or education necessary to get their kids to excel at this particular test through tutoring, preparatory classes, etc.
Racism absolutely is a major part of the reason why black and hispanic parents, by and large, do not prepare their children for the test in this way.
Racism is not the reason for the overrepresentation of Asians over Whites, I agree.
So what is the reason? And should we nevertheless be endorsing policies that replace Asian kids with white kids?
As noted, this test mostly measures two things: whether your parents can afford to send you to prep classes, hire tutors, etc; and whether they choose to do so. So this has to do with the emphasis placed on education within the Asian American community.
As for the second part of your question… Some of the Asian kids will be replaced by white kids. Others will be replaced by Mexican or Black kids. The net result will be a school that is more representative of the general population, where kids get to interact with people of other backgrounds and cultures, and therefore have a richer experience that creates more well rounded adults who are less likely to perpetuate the cycle of racism. At the same time, more black and hispanic kids in STEM fields is important, for the same reason: the more perspectives our scientists/engineers/etc have, the better. I think that’s good for society.
That’s plausible for TJHSST, where most of the pupils have wealthy parents. Less so for the magnet schools in NYC. At Stuyvesant where damuriajashi attended, 45% of the pupils are eligible for free or reduced school lunch. You think their parents were sending them to prep classes and hiring tutors?
And emphasis on education isn’t just an emphasis on tests. It’s also an emphasis on learning and working hard, which makes kids do better.
If you eliminate the test, you have to replace it with something. ‘Holistic’ admissions in the past have tended to result in a richer, whiter student body. A test is at least objective, leaving no room for discrimination, concious or not.
So you think replacing Asian kids with lower performing white kids is a net benefit? As opposed to a plan that is unlikely to do that, like reserving some places for poorer kids?
Considering how the percentage is 36% free and 9% reduced, compared to 51% free and 4% reduced statewide, that number doesn’t show what you think it does; in fact, it shows that Stuyvesant is much MORE prosperous than the state as a whole, as expected.
That’s why the proposal replaces it with a lottery system. One that’s still biased towards Asian students (who are much more likely to have the GPA necessary to qualify) but much less so.
I think a plan that allows the school to include more black and hispanic kids, to a level that matches the overall population, is better than a plan that the courts have ruled unconstitutional and therefore cannot be put into place, yes.
It still means a considerable number of students got in on their own merits without having tutors hired by their parents.
Actually it doesn’t. They changed their mind and adopted the holistic admissions process instead.
You really need to read the rest of the thread, or talk to damuriajashi. He seemed to think there were other (legal) options. I was convinced by his argument, but I’m not knowledgeable on the subject.
I don’t think that follows. Just because someone is getting reduced lunches from the government doesn’t make them so poor that they are unable to afford tutoring. Reduced price lunches in New York require the family to be under 180% above the poverty line.
A quick Google search reveals that there is a “healthy” and competitive tutoring industry specifically catered at this particular school. I’m sorry, but at that age, that’s just a means test for the parents.
In that case, I hope they can do a better job of actually trying to find kids who can benefit from the school, without leaving out people of the wrong socioeconomic status or skin color. If they end up replacing one racist admissions process with another, I will certainly back your efforts to change it again.
Remember what the issue is in the TJ school: lack of diversity that represents the area where the school is.
The issue is specifically about the small number of blacks and Hispanics there. The recent numbers flung around among right wing sources are based on assumptions that could happen if the lottery was going to be implemented as it was originally planed. However, already a lot of the changes made recently to the lottery plan were ignored to continue to make a lot of hay about the assumed increase in the white student numbers.
Now with the latest proposal and the lottery idea out, those assumed numbers about a “scary” increase of white students are even less reliable. But never mind, as I pointed out elsewhere, even holistic review (that is not really AA and not quotas) as an option is seen as the end of the world, while other schools with similar issues do use it. The evidence so far is that holistic review can work on increasing diversity, but it also depends on how the policy is implemented and by including items like expanded scholarship offerings and a push to recruit in neglected communities.
Are you serious? How can that be possible? It’s just a means test for the parents, but even families on free school lunches can afford it? That’s not much of a means test.
And they were saying earlier that to have a decent chance at getting in, a child has to be in the gifted and talented program and be 1 - 2 years ahead of their peers. Can parents buy their kid a way in to that?
Doesn’t sound like a means test to me.
We’ll see. They’re replacing a race-blind admissions process with a non-race-blind one, with the explicit goal of changing the racial make-up of the school, so chances are it will do a worse job at finding kids who can benefit, but we will see.
Yes, with the lottery proposal we could predict the numbers, but with ‘holistic admissions’ it depends entirely on how they implement it. At least this way they have a chance at picking out the most talented kids, but unlike a lottery it also can be abused. In the old days they could use holistic admissions to keep out qualified black students, now they are likely to use it to keep out qualified Asian ones. I don’t see a big moral difference between those actions.
It could also be used in more beneficial ways, to pick out poorer students who have potential, but didn’t have the same opportunities. But it’s run by humans, and humans aren’t very good at being fair and objective. That’s why we have to double-blind medical trials. That’s also why in general I’d prefer an admission process relying on objective measures. We know unconcious bias exists, and knowing about it doesn’t eliminate it.
Per this site, Fairfax County’s population is about 61% holistic and slightly under 10% diverse. Precise numbers should be released with the current census. The stated goal of the school board is to make TJ match those numbers.
You forgot the Hispanics. I wonder if they count white Hispanics as white or not? Also you should be looking at the population of 8th graders, the demographics may be different to the whole population.
Fairfax pro-TJ activist JoAnne Sears claims that she attempted to work with the Fairfax NAACP (whose head is also on the school board and has been involved in the anti-TJ movement) to set up a mentorship program aimed at helping diverse children prepare for the TJ test, but they did not respond.
Nobody seems interested in actually educating black children in Fairfax County, just using them as a weapon to destroy educational opportunities for other people. At what point does the nonstop record of failure left behind by the race war approach to education reform indicate that a new path is necessary?
The median black family in Fairfax makes $112,000. Consider the means test passed regarding the school we’re actually talking about.
It is also extremely telling that no one is calling for subsidizing or eliminating the test fee. If that was truly the issue, what a simple solution. Anything that will narrowly target helping black or poor applicants without totally destroying the school was off the table from the beginning.
As far as New York goes, you’ll find basically the same problem - no one is interested in providing free test prep classes or addressing the fact that a few months of prep pales in comparison to a lifetime of valuing education. What the race fanatics claim is the problem is a smokescreen - their true problem is any sort of educational excellence or rewarding of merit.
That’s because the test fee is not the issue; the issue is testing middle school students as if this reveals some hidden truth about their potential rather than how much their parents are able and willing to pay for them to get tutored.
Of course a lifetime of valuing education is super important. A big part of how much you value education has to do with how good your own education was. By ensuring more communities get access to high quality education, I’d like to get more people passionate about educating their kids in the next generation.
Right, your ideological commitment to the idea that no one is more capable than anyone else.
First of all, if the TJ admissions test reflected nothing more than illegitimate gaming of the test then TJ would not be able to produce the outcomes it does. TJ’s outcomes are evidence that the test does a spectacularly good job at finding people who are capable of succeeding at the TJ program.
Second, there is no racial group in Fairfax that cannot, on the whole, afford test prep and test fees. As stated above, the median income for a diverse family in Fairfax is $112,000. And again, if this were the issue then it could be solved by subsidizing the testing costs, but no one actually wants to do that because no one actually thinks it’s the issue - the fact that there are “too many Asians” at TJ is and always has been the problem that the race warriors on the school board believe needs to be solved.
Third, the idea that the tutoring class can constitute the primary predictor of success on the test is wrong. The differences in culture leading to 13 years of different paths prior to sitting the test are everything, and until people are willing to have the discussion about why some families and cultures produce better educational outcomes than others without melting down then nothing is going to improve for the families and cultures on the wrong side of the equation.
Finally, even if your worst-case scenario were true - that the test has no meaning besides finding out which families are willing to pay for prepping and taking the test - this would still be a very rough filter for “valuing education” and would STILL be a better way to select students than race-balancing.
TJ’s outcomes are evidence that if you find parents who are willing to ride their kids’ asses until they excell on the entrance exam, they will continue riding those kids all the way to college. But those kids would have done fantastically anywhere.