Sen. Kennedy on the Watch List

[Zoe]

Milroyj, not guilty means that it is no longer “alleged.” And that was not Edward Kennedy that was accused.

I see Otto beat me to it…

Try to pick examples that actually apply to Edward Kennedy since the period which everyone generally acknowledges was the turning point for him – his second marriage.

Or are you one of those people who never give a man credit for pulling himself up?

By the way. Martha Moxley’s convicted murderer is not even related to Ted Kennedy. He is Ted Kennedy’s sister-in-law’s nephew – Bobby Kennedy’s wife’s brother’s son.

Let’s see. My brother-in-law’s grandson’s step-father’s sister-in-law is Celine Dion. I hope she tows the line or my reputation is ruined with you! :dubious:

[Zoe]

Mighty Girl, I think you misunderstand me.

I had no trouble at European airports! Everyone is very courteous and they all speak English!

After all some other countries are not strangers to terrorism and seem to be getting along just fine.

That is my point. Almost all European countries have faced terrorism or war across the years. Most Americans haven’t and we don’t know how to look at it with perspective.

I include my myself. I would like to have gone to Spain from Paris, but after the explosion, I was too afraid. I didn’t even take the Metro in Paris. But that didn’t stop you from going at all. I wonder what the difference is in how you view it.
If you have told before, may I ask what country you live in? (I respect your privacy if you choose not to disclose that.)

[milroyj]

@Zoe

Milroyj, not guilty means that it is no longer “alleged.” And that was not Edward Kennedy that was accused.

I see Otto beat me to it…

Try to pick examples that actually apply to Edward Kennedy since the period which everyone generally acknowledges was the turning point for him – his second marriage.

Or are you one of those people who never give a man credit for pulling himself up?

By the way. Martha Moxley’s convicted murderer is not even related to Ted Kennedy. He is Ted Kennedy’s sister-in-law’s nephew – Bobby Kennedy’s wife’s brother’s son.

Let’s see. My brother-in-law’s grandson’s step-father’s sister-in-law is Celine Dion. I hope she tows the line or my reputation is ruined with you! :dubious:

So they are related, by marriage. That’s how it works, sometimes. Anyway, you haven’t explained why you defend that family so much, in the wake of accusations of murder and rape. Are you related somehow? Otherwise, it’s probably just ultra-liberal posturing on your part.

[Zoe]

I’ve defended Edward Kennedy from attacks on who he is today and what is he doing with his life today.

I have met some members of the Kennedy family. And it would be easy to defend the contributions they have made in service to this country. I didn’t think that was in question.

It would also be easy to point out the personal flaws of some. Is that your point? Guilt by association? Guilt by kindship? Guilt by being related to the same people though not actually related to each other?

Are you really sure you want to go there?

Political “posturing” implies pretense. I make no pretense about my political convictions. I have indicated several times that I am very liberal. I consider Kennedy and Kerry and Dean to be moderates by comparison.

[Zoe]

In milroyj’s America, you are guilty if accused.

That is pitiful.

[Brutus]

@Zoe

In milroyj’s America, you are guilty if accused.

That is pitiful.

Huh. Well, I suppose then we will not see you pointing accusing fingers at any public figures until a court finds them ‘guilty’, right?

[Mighty_Girl]

@Zoe

Mighty Girl, I think you misunderstand me.

Everyone is very courteous and they all speak English!

Yeah, they are creepy Last year we landed in Zurich and the guy next to the X-ray machine said something to me when I put my handbag on the belt. I didn’t understand and was trying to figure out if he was speaking German, Italian or French. Baffled I asked my husband and he said “he said ‘thank you’, in English”. :smack:

If you have told before, may I ask what country you live in? (I respect your privacy if you choose not to disclose that.)

My location is hardly a secret. I live in the Dominican Republic, land of the stupidest custom and inmigration officials in the world. Sure they smile a lot, welcome you warmly and give you rum as soon as you step down of the plane, but a bunch of baboons would do a better job.

[Zoe]

Brutus: Huh. Well, I suppose then we will not see you pointing accusing fingers at any public figures until a court finds them ‘guilty’, right?

Nyah. If a jury in a civil trial has found the person to be responsible for the death of someone else by a preponderance of the evidence, then I will still point my fingers.

But I don’t think that I would smear a specific public figure, especially someone in political office, with accusations of murder or rape based solely on rumor and yellow journalism and conjecture.

[Otto]

@milroyj

Otto So you’re saying that the Kennedy crimes happend a long time ago, so they’re OK?

Which Kennedy crimes? The ones where the debt to society is being or has been paid? Or the ones of which they’ve been acquitted? I hear old Joe Kennedy ran bootleg whiskey and fucked movie stars, how much longer should I hold that against Ted? How long exactly should I hold the acts of distant “Kennedy cousins” against Ted? George W. Bush’s grandfather Prescott helped finance the Nazis; how accountable shall I hold Dubya (more closely related to Prescott either Smith or Skakel is to Ted) for that?

Or maybe do we not visit the sins of the fathers (or the cousins) on the descendants?

@milroyj

The whole bunch seems to be fucked up in one way or another, but you want to give them a pass.

Yeah, Joseph Patrick Kennedy Jr., John Fitzgerald Kennedy, Rosemary Kennedy, Kathleen Agnes Kennedy, Eunice Mary Kennedy, Patricia Kennedy, Jean Ann Kennedy, Caroline Bouvier Kennedy, John Fitzgerald Kennedy Jr., Patrick Bouvier Kennedy, Kathleen Hartington Kennedy, Joseph Patrick Kennedy II, Robert Francis Kennedy Jr., Mary Courtney Kennedy, Mary Kerry Kennedy, Christopher George Kennedy, Matthew Maxwell Taylor Kennedy, Douglas Harriman Kennedy, Rory Elizabeth Kennedy, Kara Anne Kennedy, Edward Moore Kennedy Jr., Patrick Joseph Kennedy, Robert Francis Kennedy, fucked up every last one of them. Given the sheer volume of Kennedys, the number of them who’ve been in trouble seems not really that high. As opposed to, say, George H.W. Bush’s children, several of whom have been involved in some pretty shady activity (like father [and grandfather and great-grandfather] like sons I guess), or former drunkard and alleged cocaine abuser George W Bush’s children, both of whom were habitual offenders, or Jeb Bush with his drug addict jailbird daughter. No, percentagewise, the Bushes are way out in front on being fucked up and criminals.

And yet you want to give Gee Dubya a pass. Why?

All of which, you dirtbag waste of breath partisan harpy fuck, is still completely irrelevant to the abuses of the watch list.

Do you think, in between raving about Ted Kennedy and his distant relatives, you could take three fucking seconds to wipe the froth off your lips and maybe condemn those abuses? Or, when all is said and done, are you such a useless partisan brain-dead asshole Republican zombie stooge that you can’t?

[Zoe]

Meanwhile, back in the Carribean…

Mighty Girl, why would you go to Philadelphia when you can live in the Carribean all the time?

I’d better stop now. I’m interrupting the flow of venom.

[rjung]

@Czarcasm

What the holy hell are you going to do if your name pops up on the fuckin’ list?

This bunch of Bush-lickers?

They’ll probably say “I’m sure I’m on the list for some good reason; but I have nothing to fear, since I have done nothing wrong,” right before they drop trou and get it up the rumpus by a Federal Security Agent…

[milroyj]

@Otto

All of which, [snip], is still completely irrelevant to the abuses of the watch list.

What abuses of the watch list? His name matched one on the list. Is there credible evidence that this was due to some sort of malfeasance? Or, was it more likely due to typical government bureaucratic ineptitude?

Liberals like Teddy are the ones who believe that big government is the solution to all of life’s problems. In this case, he got what he wished for, in spades. So cry me a river about poor Teddy Kennedy, the :wally.

[Kyla]

My god.

Who the fuck cares about all of the Kennedys and all of the Bushes ever?

The point is, it’s ridiculous that Sen. Kennedy was stopped by TSA officials three times. That such a well-known person who is obviously not a terrorist could be stopped so often points to a severe problem with Homeland Security’s database. It makes me nervous that this is the organization that’s supposed to be keeping us safe, she says as she remembers she’s taking an international flight next week.

[Equipoise]

@milroyj

What abuses of the watch list? His name matched one on the list. Is there credible evidence that this was due to some sort of malfeasance? Or, was it more likely due to typical government bureaucratic ineptitude?

Liberals like Teddy are the ones who believe that big government is the solution to all of life’s problems. In this case, he got what he wished for, in spades. So cry me a river about poor Teddy Kennedy, the :wally.

You think this is about Teddy Kennedy or Al Gore or John Lewis? Even beyond the possibility that some Republican asshole put these guys’ names on the lists as a joke (yeah, lots of terrorists named Al Gore), it’s a matter of civil liberties. Regular people who aren’t members of Congress (or terrorists) can have their names on the lists and they don’t have the option of calling friends in the government or Tom Ridge himself to get it taken care of.

Don’t you get it?

How does one get to be such a dumb, insensitive fuck? Were you born this way or were you in some sort of accident that caused brain-damage or something? I’m really curious.

[milroyj]

Hey, it’s not my fault Kennedy voted for the Patriot Act, and now he’s got caught up in its ramifications. BTW, Kerry voted for the Patriot Act as well. If you’re so concerned about civil liberties, you’re not planning on voting for Kerry in November, are you?

[Dangerosa]

So, because the bureaucracy is inept, we should tolerate it? And if we are unlucky enough to end up on the watch list - well, that’s the price of freedom.

Or maybe just get rid of the watch list and drop airport security?

How about a middle ground - admit what we have is a good idea, poorly implemented and fix the problems. One being that people with similiar names to terrorists should be able to get themselves off the list by providing addresses, birthdates, social security numbers and ID that proves that aren’t “Edward Kennedy, terrorist alias.”

This isn’t a partisian problem. Except perhaps that someone in the Bush Administration is ultimately responsible for oversight, but its a real stretch to blame George himself for Ted being on the watch list. The buck stops here is good in theory, but we can’t just pass the buck up the ladder indefinately. Some political appointee Republican peon - the 2000 campaign coordinator for Middle of Nowhere, Montana - is where the buck needs to stop. But a Democrat could be just as inept.

Certainly there are people who should be on the watch list. I have a friend who suspects he is and gets searched every time he flies. And, while I know he isn’t a terrorist, he has an odd sense of humor that puts him on the watch list - and a stranger can’t tell the difference between a sense of humor and someone serious (although I’d really hope someone planning on releasing anthrax is stupid enough to have his luggage stamped with the biohazzard symbol - would make homeland security a lot easier).

[Derleth]

@Dangerosa

the 2000 campaign coordinator for Middle of Nowhere, Montana

I knew that guy was a moron.

(Am I surprised that this turned into partisan crap an hour exactly after my OP? No. I suppose that’s the only way to stretch one of my threads into two pages, so I shouldn’t complain.)

[Otto]

@milroyj

What abuses of the watch list?

Um, the fact that a United States senator has been stopped several times as a potential terrorist and the problem hasn’t been corrected? That a United States Congressman has been stopped three dozen times and the problem hasn’t been fixed? That the people responsible for the list don’t bother to fix it? That the people using the list are using outdated information?

Oh, but a Republican is in charge and it’s Democrats being stopped, and you can’t figure out a way to blame Bill Clinton for it, so it doesn’t matter.

[milroyj]

@Dangerosa

So, because the bureaucracy is inept, we should tolerate it? And if we are unlucky enough to end up on the watch list - well, that’s the price of freedom.

Or maybe just get rid of the watch list and drop airport security?

How about a middle ground - admit what we have is a good idea, poorly implemented and fix the problems. One being that people with similiar names to terrorists should be able to get themselves off the list by providing addresses, birthdates, social security numbers and ID that proves that aren’t “Edward Kennedy, terrorist alias.”

Geez, Dangerosa, there you go being all reasonable and stuff.

Yes, we should acknowledge the flaws in the system and fix them. The shrill whining from some quarters about the supposed loss of civil liberties was what bugged me. I’m 100% confident that Senator Edward M. Kennedy has never had a civil right denied to him in any of his 72 years.

[Liberal]

Reasonable, hell! Why should innocent people have to prove their innocence? Let those who suspect them of crimes prove their guilt.