That’s my guess, too. His interviews are probably being done via prison phone, like Adnan’s.
The podcast didn’t really highlight everything written in the diary. Spoiler below:
[spoiler]Adnan’s first appeal was based in part because the following letter from Hae’s to Adnan about their breakup was read to the jury.
[QUOTE=Hae]
I’m really getting annoyed that this situation is going the way it is. At first I kind of wanted to make this easy for me and for you. You know people break up all the time. Your life is not going to end. You’ll move on and I’ll move on. But apparently you don’t respect me enough to accept my decision. I really couldn’t give damn [sic] about whatever you want to say. With the way things have been since 7:45 am this morning, now I’m more certain that I’m making the right choice. The more fuss you make, the more I’m determined to do what I gotta do. I really don’t think I can be in a relationship like we had, not between us, but mostly about the stuff around us. I seriously did expect you to accept, although not understand. I’ll be busy today, tomorrow, and probably till Thursday.
[/QUOTE]
[/spoiler]
I have been reading the reddit threads that discuss some of this. I will spolier the answer in case you don’t want to know.
Jay is supposedly free and living in LA. He was charged as an accessory after the fact and given a 5-year suspended sentence and 2 years probation for this case. Over the past 15 years, he has been arrested a few times for relatively minor things like drug possession and sales, and for domestic violence incidents. Apparently, his FB page is public, although I have not seen it.
It does for the following reason. Hae and Adnan break up, yet he calls her 3 times the night before she disappears. Then, AFAICT, doesn’t call her again at any point after she disappears. Clearly those calls, which he says were to give her his cell number, was to set things up for the next day. Otherwise, he would have given her his number in person one of the two days he saw her previously in school, or the following school day. There is also the “coincidence” that he got his cell phone only two days prior and that Jay says he’d mentioned killing Hae more then a week before.
It doesn’t make sense because he is lying about his involvement, not because what he says didn’t happen at all.
Either way though, that doesn’t really affect whether he is guilty. I think Adnan is guilty for the following reasons:
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Generally speaking, criminals convicted in court are factually guilty. While that has nothing to do with Adnan specifically, I think it’s wise to defer to a jury who listened to all the evidence rather than a few episdoes of a selectively edited, yet entertaining podcast. Plus, the idea that cops would generally trust a Black, drug-dealing liar (Jay) over a honor roll student like Adnan leads me to think there is plenty of other evidence they have.
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He calls Hae the night before she disappears 3 times. He says he does this solely to give her his number, but that makes no sense for a variety of reasons. Look at the call log. He calls her at 11:27pm, 12:01am, and 12:35am. The only call that lasts long enough to have a conversation is the 12:35am call the day she disappears. Does it make any sense that he would think this information that he could have given her in class that day was so urgent that he needed to call her past midnight on a school day? Clearly, this call was more urgent and more substantive. My guess is he was either ensuring they would be alone to talk the next day, or to pry into her relationship with Don whom she saw earlier that night.
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As Rogers01 brought up before, the idea that he would have no recollection of that day is really strange for a few reasons. First, it’s during Ramadan, and he would have had duties and things to do. Second, it’s his best friend Stephanie’s birthday. Third, his ex-girlfriend disappears. Now the last part might be excusable given he supposedly didn’t realize she was really missing that day, but the detective called him that night around 6:30pm to alert him to the fact that Hae was missing. You’d think he would remember that day if for no other reason than a detective calling you to ask about your ex. Also note that he doesn’t call or page Hae after getting that call from the detective. Given he tried to reach out to her 3 times 16 hours prior, you’d think he could have called to see where she was after getting that call.
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Adnan refuses to unequivocally say he didn’t do it or to declaratively say where he was, and what he actually was doing. Instead he just speculates on what he likely did, or says there is no proof he did what he is accused of. His complete lack of outrage toward Jay, the guy he alleges set him up, also seems pretty calculated. Adnan calling Jay “pathetic” in court is telling as well.
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Adnan has lied several times about things. For example, he says he barely knows Jay, yet Will, a track teammate, says Jay picking up Adnan from practice was a regular occurrence. Adnan is also so concerned that this guy he doesn’t know that well gets his gf a present that lends him his car and phone? Then he hangs out with him later that day for several hours?
Most important is the issue with the ride. He first tells the detective who calls him that day that he asked her for a ride, but that he missed her. Then he later says he would not have asked or a ride because he had a car. Now, I think Adnan said he asked her for a ride because he knew others like Becky heard him ask. It was only later that he decided playing dumb about everything was his best defense.
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Two people were likely involved because they had to ditch the car, etc. We know Jay is one because he knows how she died and where the car was. Adnan is the only other guy who you could reasonable argue would have motive, means, and ability to commit the crime with Jay. Hae would not have agreed to meet with Jay, a person she doesn’t like or really know, alone. Given she didn’t show up to pickup her cousin right after school, we know she disappeared immediately after school. I doubt she would have stopped for any reason unless it was intended to be quick, and it was for someone she cared about.
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Given the above, if Jay intended to frame Adnan, he would have had to do a number of unlikely things like:
a. Convince Adnan to come up with the idea to lend him his car and cell phone (that he got only two days prior).
b. Somehow contact Hae to convince her to meet up somewhere alone where he could commit the crime.
c. Still manage to both get a present for Stephanie, and kill Hae before having to pick Adnan from practice.
d. Ensure that Adnan didn’t have an airtight alibi for the time period in which Hae went missing.
e. Tell Jen that night that Adnan killed Hae, but convince her to not say anything for a month.
f. Somehow end up in Leaking Park later that night (backed by cell records) with Adnan, while Adnan was completely unaware of where they were (Adnan claimed he doesn’t know where Leakin Park is).
By almost all accounts, Jay is a fuck up. The idea that he could pull all that off is just no that believable. That not even considering the fact he had no reason to do it.
- According to the call log, the person will the cell phone called both Nisha (Adnan’s friend) and his voicemail between the hours of 3:30 and 5:30, when Adnan says he was at track practice and w/o his cell phone. In between those calls which Adnan likely made, we have calls to Jen and Patrick which Jay likely made. The clear inference here being that Jay and Adnan were together during that time period.
Okay I am going to have to avoid reading this thread from now on. Even with spoiler tags, this is too risky.
Interesting and well put, brickbacon.
***spoiler alert-New listener, turned on by my son today, listened to all podcasts so far. Theory is that Adnand as a Muslim, is the scapegoat, Jay is the stupid, accessible mouthpiece, and Hae is the victim of a dishonored father. Hae was in love with a boy she should not have loved; he was keeping the relationship quiet, because he wasn’t supposed to be with girls at all…Jay was a fringe character in their lives, and vulnerable because he was a low level weed dealer…these were the perfect characters to play in the drama that would unfold regarding the daughter, Hae’s, untimely death. We know NOTHING about Hae’s family. We have NO idea where Jay is present day. What we DO know is that the time line barely fits, that neither Admand nor Jay have a motive to kill Hae, but in my estimation, her family does; for dishonoring them by having sex with a boy and not meeting with their expectations of her. If you review everything so far, the testimony and timelines, no player in our story has a MURDEROUS motive…think hard. More later.
okay now I have to unsubscribe from this thread.
Yeah, me too.
Yesterday I listened to the first five episodes of Serial and I am thoroughly hooked. Can’t wait for Thursday, but I suspect we won’t ever get any closer to the truth.
At this point this is what I think:
- Adnan is guilty
- Jay is more complicit than he is letting on
- the prosecution’s timeline is wrong
- Asia probably did see Adnan in the library at the time in question
What I really want to know is what time Hae was meant to pick up her cousin. Was it 2:45 or 3:15 or 4:20? Everyone is fixated on 2:36 because of the unattributed cell phone call but what if she didn’t go missing until later? What if Adnan was in the library at about 2:36?
But that raises even more questions…Jay is in this up to his eyeballs since he knew where Hae’s car was so that fact can’t be ignored. If Jay did it how and why? How did he intercept Hae? If Adnan was in the library but still involved in the murder how did he get to wherever Hae was kidnaped? Did Jay kidnap her and Adnan strangle her?
And still the motive…i don’t buy the prosecution’s double life theory but I can imagine the crazy emotions and passions of teenagers. I can believe the jealousy thing even though he never showed it. Obviously Adnan is capable of living two lives; he has done it for years. Could he be that good at manipulating his outward emotions that he was angry and jealous inside but never show it to his friends?
Finally, the cell towers. Rabia has a detailed map on her blog. As unreliable as it is there is one thing that stands out…only three calls that day went through the Leakin Park tower and two of those were at the time they were supposed to be burying the body (unless I am missing something). That looks really bad and it is hard to make yourself ignore that info.
I also wish we could hear from the detectives. As Sarah said, these guys are no fools, especially in a city like Baltimore. They have heard it all and seen it all. At the same time they are under tremendous pressure to clear cases so when they get an ex-boyfriend w/ no firm alibi they are going to go after that like bloodhounds (inconvenient facts be damned).
I feel so bad for all the families involved having this dragged up again. I’m sure Hae’s family isn’t too happy about this series. I just hope that Jay or Adnan come forward w/ more details before her parents pass away so they can rest in peace.
For what it’s worth, there were not actually any spoilers in that post, just speculation/theorizing based on the information we’ve already heard this far in.
Though on the topic of kittykatband’s speculation… It is interesting that we haven’t heard anything about Hae’s family to this point. It’s an understandable but annoying feature of this podcast that as we’re trying to figure things out week-by-week we have no idea what information they’re holding back from us. Here we’re all focusing on Adnan and Jay, but how do we know that in a future episode we won’t learn that, say, Hae’s father was abusive and his whereabouts that day are unknown? Or that there was a serial strangler at lose in Baltimore around this time?
I’ve been listening, find it entertaining and will continue listening but don’t find it terribly INTERESTING because Adnan seems to be obviously guilty for alot of the reasons listed in this thread and there is really no mystery other than “How involved was Jay in the murder?”.
Adnan sounds completely ambivalent about the whole thing in his phone interviews, which may be due to his decade in prison, I don’t know. When the narrator mentioned she had found Anna or whoever the library girl was he kind of sat in silence, his muted reaction clearly surprising her, and he struggled to come up with words to redirect the conversation. This was a girl who could have been his alibi and he was like “Oh…umm…really?” He’s very matter of fact about things. In fact, most of the people interviewed seem to be pretty giggly considering they are talking about a murdered classmate/acquaintance.
If anything Jay was a full fledged accomplice in the actual murder. There is really no mystery about Adnan. He can’t actually accuse Jay of helping him because in the process he will have to admit he did it and knows what happened etc…
I think they made a poor choice for the first mystery story for this podcast. This would be a 20minute segment on Dateline NBC because it’s such a run-of-the-mill scorned lover type case.
For the sake of this post lets assume that both Adnan and Jay buried the body in Leakin Park. Think about that scene for a moment. There was a snowstorm that night; I wonder if it had started snowing yet. I don’t know Baltimore but I’ve got to guess that ground was pretty hard to turn over. All the same you’d think that at one point one of them would have thought “Lets spend a little more time here and dig this hole deeper.” That would have been time well invested considering the consequences.
It makes you wonder if they had seen the movie Shallow Grave (1994).
Also, I remember reading somewhere just how hard and time consuming digging a proper grave by hand is. When Jay said in the police interview they spent 20 -25 minutes digging, each of them doing equal work w/ two shovels I think that sounds about right. I suspect the detectives knew that as well. I doubt many city kids could accurately guess how long it would take to dig a person-sized hole six inches deep in hard ground in the dark.
Chilling to think about.
I find it strange that people are using the “Adnan seems too casual about this” as some kind of evidence of guilt.
Being a convicted killer in prison has been his everyday for yeeeears at this point. I’m sure his righteous indignation has faded.
The mystery of the current status of Jay has irked me since the beginning. You got to at least give a hint.
I posted Jay’s whereabouts earlier in the thread if you care to reveal the spoiler.
As far as him being casual about the whole thing, it’s less that he is too casual, and more than he is completely unengaged with the whole process or trying to remember “what happened”. I get that it is hard to be really angry for 15 years. However, that doesn’t mean you are reluctant to say someone framed you, or to say you unequivocally didn’t do something.
For those of you who want something to listen to in between Serial episodes- there was a podcast on Strangers that aired a while back that I recently discovered. It’s also about a high school boy wrongly accused - in this case there is no doubt (not a spoiler, declared immediately in podcast). It’s more about his coping with prison time but there’s time spent on the court case itself that is hard to believe and chilling. It’s here: Franky Carillo:Life
I haven’t read any spoilers, and just based on what Serial has posted so far, I’m thinking that Jay was more complicit in this murder than he is letting on. I think Adnan and Jay were in this together, and Jay turned on him.
Yeah, that’s my current feeling too. Adnan just didn’t seem very convincing to me when he was explaining why he failed to call Hae. The evidence seems to be piling up that Adnan was with Jay the day that Hae died. Since the evidence indicates that Jay was an accomplice in Hae’s murder, Adnan’s presence with Jay on that day would point to him as being a part of the murder as well.
On the other hand, the state’s case still has a lot of holes.
I still don’t think I’m beyond a reasonable doubt, but I’m more convinced that Adnan is guilty after the last episode. But, I feel like they sort of took us for a ride a bit by putting the best evidence that he is innocent early in the series, and holding back the “Oh, yeah, turns out there is good reason to think this guy is guilty,” stuff for the final episodes.
After the latest episode I feel like they thought this case was going to be more mysterious than its turned out to be. She is kind of forcing things to appear more murky than they actually are for effect IMHO. Still worth listening to in the car on the way home from work.
Agreed it is getting really murky at this point. can’t help but think that they are basing Adman’s conviction on the timeline and testimony of Jay, and we have not heard from Jay in the present day at all…where is he? The rest of the witnesses were either high or in the dark most of the time during the actual events and it sounds like many of them were interviewed AFTER Adman was arrested. Then everyone comes out of the woodwork and remembers??kinda fishy.
We also haven’t heard from Hae’s family, except that her brother called Adman and upset him at Cathy’s house>>> then nothing more about him that I could piece together.
Finally, are we thinking next week’s experts could be forensics? It’s still interesting, but the absence of Jay is glaring.
I’d also like to add that all these people who are supposed to be in their early 30s talk and sound like high school kids. Lots of giggling and "like"s. Also sounded like the narrator is getting a bit horny for the guy.