Sevastopol, Der Trihs, round 2 motherfuckers!

[mhendo]

Martin, you’re too stupid to deserve a response, but here goes anyway.

@Martin Hyde

Condemnation isn’t the same to me as deciding what someone deserves. That is up to society to decide what someone deserves. If a murderer deserves death or imprisonment it would be wrong for me to decide that, it isn’t my place, it is the place of society collectively.

But we’re talking about beliefs regarding what people deserve.

You are correct that you don’t get to decide what the punishment for a murderer would be, but i’ll bet that you have your own idea about what that person deserves. And, in that sense, you are no different from someone who believes that a dead soldier “got what he deserves.”

Again, for those who aren’t reading closely, i don’t subscribe to the belief that all dead soldiers got what they deserve, or that all soldiers deserve to die.

@Martin Hyde

Such apportionment of blame is what I call a coward’s “easy way out.” It is an attempt to shirk the responsibility which collectively is everyone’s.

Oh, bullshit. The coward’s way out is what you’re doing: apportioning blame to everyone when, in reality, only a certain percentage of society supports any given action.

Are you really trying to tell me that (to use the most obvious example) someone who voted against George Bush both times, and who has been engaged in anti-war efforts for the past four years bears the same amount of responsibiity for our presence in Iraq as someone who voted for Bush both times and supports the war?

@Martin Hyde

There is a difference between policies in a society and the structure of a society.

You can oppose individual policies, but if part of the structural nature of your society is having a military, then unless you wish to destroy the structure itself and remake society you are tacitly supporting said structure by not opposing it. The reason societies are extremely resilient is because most people do not want to hit at the structure itself, even the worst of the extremists.

You seem unable to grasp the concept that it is possible to support many aspects of a society’s structure and organization without supporting all of them, and the idea that just because you want to improve society you don’t necessarily want to destroy it. “We had to destroy the village in order to save it” might be a beautifully Orwellian line appropriate for use by US forces in Vietnam, but the civilized world doesn’t work that way.

@Martin Hyde

Policies aren’t what I was talking about. You don’t seem capable of hitting at the deeper levels of this discussion so I suggest you withdraw yourself from it ASAP.

There is no deeper level, and least not from you. The only reason you think you’re deep is that your only reference point is your own shallowness.

In case you fail to grasp the concept, the policies instituted as part of society’s structure inevitably bear on whether or not we support the structure itself. It is, as i and others have made clear, perfectly possible to believe that the military is a necessary part of society while also calling for reform within the institution itself. The fact that you can’t see these connections doesn’t mean that they don’t exist.

@Martin Hyde

Name one war of aggression in the 20th century and I’ll recant my statement.

The war in Iraq.

I’m waiting for your recantation.

@Martin Hyde

If we’re talking about absolute moral positions, like the opposition to aggressive war, then I wouldn’t think you’d like to take the “odds” that more than likely you wouldn’t have to be involved in an aggressive war.

The second we introduce the idea that opposition to the existence of the military is a reasonable standpoint I thought we had vacated the world of common sense completely. If you want to enter common sense in the equation you need to find a way to remove all of LHoD and your posts from this thread.

No, you vacated the world of common sense well before that.

Hasta la vista, moron.

[Airman_Doors_USAF]

You are aware that this is the 21st century, aren’t you?

You might be able to say Panama or Grenada, and arguably Vietnam (though I would disagree with you on that), but not Iraq.

[mhendo]

@Airman Doors

You are aware that this is the 21st century, aren’t you?

You might be able to say Panama or Grenada, and arguably Vietnam (though I would disagree with you on that), but not Iraq.

You are correct, of course.

But i don’t see why Martin Hyde should be able to dictate the 20th century as the only valid time span. Why not the 21st also? Or did he exclude it specifically because he knows that the Iraq venture can only be described as an aggressive war?

20th century, i’ll take all three of your suggestions (definitely including Vietnam), as well as the bombing of other parts of Indochina such as Cambodia in the early 1970s.

Go back a little further, and i’d also argue for the Spanish American War, starting in 1898. Like the Gulk of Tonkin incident that justified the start of the Vietnam war, the Spanish American War also had its own little dubious incident, the sinking of the Maine, which was used to justify US aggression.

But this is all a sidetrack. The question is not my definition of US aggression, but the definition adopted by the hypothetical folks who oppose the US military as an immoral institution. If a person believes that the US is an aggressor nation, and if the person is morally opposed to this type of aggression, then that person is also justified in believing that the US military is an immoral institution and that joining it is an immoral act.

[lissener]

@Martin Hyde

No legitimate philosophical position can condemn an entire class of people for their choices.

Unless, say, you *define *that “class” by the choices they make. I can’t condemn all fundamentalist terrorists for choosing to be fundamentalist terrorists?

[Guinastasia]

@Sam Stone

Is there a country on the planet that has absolutely no military?

Costa Rica

[mhendo]

@lissener

Unless, say, you *define *that “class” by the choices they make. I can’t condemn all fundamentalist terrorists for choosing to be fundamentalist terrorists?

Exactly the point i was trying to make earlier, and why i believe that there is a difference between generalizing about (e.g.) racial groups and generalizing about groups whose members make specific and informed decisions about joining, and know what is required of them in order to be a member.

[TVeblen]

@Martin Hyde

I know that I would cheer on if some unnamed malignant force was to brutally murder him and everyone like him, so I guess I can’t blame him for feeling the same way about people like me.

Ratchet back your bile, Martin Hyde. You may despise other posters–and ‘people like them’–but wishing brutal murder on them is jerkish. Don’t do it again.

TVeblen

[crowmanyclouds]

@Martin Hyde

…I know that I would cheer on if some unnamed malignant force was to brutally murder him and everyone like him, so I guess I can’t blame him for feeling the same way about people like me…

@Martin Hyde

…I was simply saying, that just as he takes glee in the death of soldiers, I would take glee in the deaths of people who take joy in the death of soldiers…

@Martin Hyde

…For any bystander to take glee, or to try to say that it was deserved on either side is indefensible morally. Individuals shouldn’t have the right to make such condemnations over other individuals…

So nice when the morally indefensible, self identify.

@Martin Hyde

How many wars of aggression has the US military gotten involved in? In the 20th century I cannot think of a single one.

Honduras 1903 Troops, Marines intervene in revolution
Dominican Republic 1903-04 Troops, U.S. interests protected in Revolution
Cuba 1906-09 Troops, Marines land in democratic election
Nicaragua 1907 Troops, “Dollar Diplomacy” protectorate set up
Honduras 1907 Troops, Marines land during war with Nicaragua
Panama 1908 Troops, Marines intervene in election contest
Nicaragua 1910 Troops, Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto
Honduras 1911 Troops, U.S. interests protected in civil war
Cuba 1912 Troops, U.S. interests protected in Havana
Panama 1912 Troops, Marines land during heated election
Honduras 1912 Troops, Marines protect U.S. economic interests
Nicaragua 1912-33 Troops/bombing, 20-year occupation, fought guerrillas
Mexico 1913 Naval, Americans evacuated during revolution
Dominican Republic 1914 Naval, Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo
Mexico 1914-18 Naval/troops, Series of interventions against nationalists
Haiti 1914-34 Troops/bombing, 19-year occupation after revolts
Dominican Republic 1916-24 Troops, 8-year Marine occupation
Cuba 1917-33 Troops, Military occupation, economic protectorate
Panama 1918-20 Troops, “Police duty” during unrest after elections
Honduras 1919 Troops, Marines land during election campaign
Guatemala 1920 Troops, 2-week intervention against unionists
Costa Rica 1921 Troops,
Panama 1921 Troops,
Honduras 1924-25 Troops, Landed twice during election strife
Panama 1925 Troops, Marines suppress general strike
El Salvador 1932 Naval, Warships sent during Faribundo Marti revolt
Uruguay 1947 Nuclear threat, Bombers deployed as show of strength
Puerto Rico 1950 Command operation, Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce
Guatemala 1954-? Command operation/bombing/nuclear threat, CIA directs exile invasion and coup d’Etat after newly elected government nationalizes unused U.S.'s United Fruit Company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua; long-term result: 200,000 murdered
Panama 1958 Troops, Flag protests erupt into confrontation
Cuba 1961 Command operation, CIA-directed exile invasion fails
Cuba 1962 Nuclear threat/naval, Blockade during missile crisis; near-war with Soviet Union
Panama 1964 Troops, Panamanians shot for urging canal’s return
Dominican Republic 1965-66 Troops/bombing, Marines land during election campaign
Guatemala 1966-67 Command operation, Green Berets intervene against rebels
Chile 1973 Command operation CIA-backed coup ousts democratically elected Marxist president
El Salvador 1981-92 Command operation/troops, Advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war, soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash; long-term result: 75,000 murdered and destruction of popular movement
Nicaragua 1981-90 Command operation/naval, CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution; result: 50,000 murdered
Honduras 1982-90 Troops, Maneuvers help build bases near borders
Grenada 1983-84 Troops/bombing, Invasion four years after revolution
Bolivia 1987 Troops, Army assists raids on cocaine region
Panama 1989 Troops/bombing, Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed
Haiti 1994-95 Troops/naval, Blockade against military government; troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup

Above is just U.S. interventions in Latin America.
Of course since Congress didn’t declare war none of this counts, right?
Want the whole list?
Congressional Research Service Report for Congress
Instances of Use of United States Armed Forces
Abroad, 1798-2001{PDF}

[GIGObuster]

@Guinastasia

Costa Rica

Darn, I came too late. **Guinastasia ** once again shows she knows more than many Latin Americans I know.

[Airman_Doors_USAF]

@TVeblen

Ratchet back your bile, Martin Hyde. You may despise other posters–and ‘people like them’–but wishing brutal murder on them is jerkish. Don’t do it again.

TVeblen

Proof once again that I and my fellow military members are fair game.

You’ve had a whole thread to see that I “deserve” whatever I get, and yet you go after that?

Veb, I’d like to say that you make me sick, but like I said before, I’m resigned to it, so whatever. I give up.

You know, maybe if I go over there and die I might get some of the respect that I feel that I deserve. It’s too bad that it would have to come to that for people to give it to me. Even then there would be people saying that I “deserved” it, or that they don’t have a lick of sympathy for my family because I’m a terrorist murderer oppressor.

That’s a damn shame, if you ask me.

[What_Exit]

@Airman Doors

Proof once again that I and my fellow military members are fair game.

You’ve had a whole thread to see that I “deserve” whatever I get, and yet you go after that?

Veb, I’d like to say that you make me sick, but like I said before, I’m resigned to it, so whatever. I give up.

You know, maybe if I go over there and die I might get some of the respect that I feel that I deserve. It’s too bad that it would have to come to that for people to give it to me. Even then there would be people saying that I “deserved” it, or that they don’t have a lick of sympathy for my family because I’m a terrorist murderer oppressor.

That’s a damn shame, if you ask me.

Airman, overall I am on your side. I’m ex-Navy. I believe in serving our country and that if a war is unjust, it is the Admin’s fault and not the Grunts.
But, if you saw any posts in this thread that approached the venom of Martin’s, did you report it to the Mods? I sure as heck believe several posters reported Martin’s.
BTW: I’ll say it again, thank you for serving. Stay safe.

Jim

[mhendo]

@Airman Doors

You know, maybe if I go over there and die I might get some of the respect that I feel that I deserve. It’s too bad that it would have to come to that for people to give it to me.

This is a parody, right? There’s some joke i’m not getting.

I can honestly say that i don’t think any single person on this message board has been more frequently praised than you. Time and time again, over the years that i’ve been a member here, i’ve seen even people who disagree with your political positions offer you sincere thanks and respect for your membership in America’s armed forces.

Over and over, people who oppose you in debate have taken the time to say that they appreciate the sacrifices you make, and the fact that you are willing to serve your country. And, needless to say, those who agree with your political positions have been, if possible, even more fulsome in their respect for your service.

Some months ago, you started a thread announcing your imminent departure for Iraq, and that thread garnered over 100 responses offering you nothing but respect, good wishes, and exhortations to take care and return safely. I participated in that thread, as did many others whom you have argued with on these forums.

I could spend hours searching for other similar stuff, because i know i’ve seen bucketloads of examples over the past few years, but you don’t need me to do that, because you know very well that the vast majority of the people on this message board respect your service, and that this is the case even among those who don’t agree with you about specific issues surrounding the armed forces and American foreign policy.

The fact that you focus on the attitudes of a very small minority, as expressed in a few threads, and choose to wallow in self-pity and martyrdom in response is not very becoming of you, and is actually something of an insult to the vast majority of people on these boards who always have, and still do respect your military service.

Just MHO.

[Airman_Doors_USAF]

@mhendo

The fact that you focus on the attitudes of a very small minority, as expressed in a few threads, and choose to wallow in self-pity and martyrdom in response is not very becoming of you, and is actually something of an insult to the vast majority of people on these boards who always have, and still do respect your military service.

Yeah, you’re right. Overall I have a large amount of support.

Nonetheless, it’s incredibly depressing to find that there are people here who not only wish for my death (or tell me that I deserve it, which is pretty much the same thing) but take the time to type it up, proofread it, convince themselves that they really mean it, and hit the submit button. It’s similar to the kind of person that would write a death threat to someone, and it’s unnerving.

Forgive me my moment of weakness. I would venture to say that if you got a death threat you’d be at least moderately concerned. I have to read that kind of stuff regularly here, and to tell you the truth it’s a bit much.

[What_Exit]

@Airman Doors

Yeah, you’re right. Overall I have a large amount of support.

Nonetheless, it’s incredibly depressing to find that there are people here who not only wish for my death (or tell me that I deserve it, which is pretty much the same thing) but take the time to type it up, proofread it, convince themselves that they really mean it, and hit the submit button. It’s similar to the kind of person that would write a death threat to someone, and it’s unnerving.

Forgive me my moment of weakness. I would venture to say that if you got a death threat you’d be at least moderately concerned. I have to read that kind of stuff regularly here, and to tell you the truth it’s a bit much.

Think of it this way, one of the worst offenders is on a month long enforced sabbatical at least.

Jim

[mhendo]

@Airman Doors

Forgive me my moment of weakness. I would venture to say that if you got a death threat you’d be at least moderately concerned. I have to read that kind of stuff regularly here, and to tell you the truth it’s a bit much.

Fair enough.

I’m still not sure that i would equate wishing for someone’s death with a death threat. Hoping for such an outcome, while rather morbid and unseemly, is not the same as threatening to make it happen.

There are some people in this world for whom i have so little respect that their dislike of me is (or would be) a point of pride. Try to think about it like that, and it becomes a little easier to bear.

[Monty]

@Airman Doors

Forgive me my moment of weakness. I would venture to say that if you got a death threat you’d be at least moderately concerned. I have to read that kind of stuff regularly here, and to tell you the truth it’s a bit much.

At least you didn’t get a mod telling you that it’s your own fault.

I know, small solace that.

[Airman_Doors_USAF]

It never becomes easier to bear. I don’t want to be hated.

I joined up before 9/11, in my anger I believed everything that I was told and then some, and later I admitted that I had made a mistake in believing it.

I am proud of my service. I am proud of the friends that I had that were killed, most of all Kimberly Voelz, who I went to school with, who was blown apart by an IED while she was attempting to defuse it in an ill-fated attempt to save lives.

I am not proud of the people who commit crimes and discredit the reputation of the United States Armed Forces. I am not proud of the leadership that has led us to disaster. I am, however, in an ideal position. As a young NCO I am in a position to observe what is wrong, and as I advance in rank I will be able to exert some influence which will allow me to remedy some of the failures that I have seen.

I can’t pick the wars that I am ordered to fight in. I can, however, make a difference in a later war, which will perhaps be one that you guys actually support.

Knowing all that, it doesn’t make it any easier to know that I am reviled by people because of what I do. I prefer to be judged on the content of my character rather than the (mis)behavior of others. Instead I have to endure attack after attack from people who know nothing about who I am, what I am about, and why I do what I do.

[Monty]

I’m with the Airman on this…what, exactly, do the mods consider to be “beyond the pale” on this death wishing thing? What do they consider to be wishing death?

[duffer]

@Airman Doors

Proof once again that I and my fellow military members are fair game.

You’ve had a whole thread to see that I “deserve” whatever I get, and yet you go after that?

Veb, I’d like to say that you make me sick, but like I said before, I’m resigned to it, so whatever. I give up.

I’d say it’s funny. But it isn’t. Not even in a sarcastic way.

I keep thinking back to that “STFU” included in the wrong forum earning an almost immediate warning. Granted, a moderator not assosciated with the Pit, but a warning is a warning. They all count the same.

Then in the link I gave for this Pitting, I posted a rebuke late in the game, and a few posts after mine the warning (was it even that?) was posted. Finally. (No, I never reported anything.) Took long enough. And it wasn’t really considered offensive based on the Mod response.

So what can we learn from this? Posting an acronym in the wrong forum earns a warning that accumulates towards a ban without ever letting you know how many freebies you have left, while the most egregious shit can be posted with an occasional mention that “You shouldn’t do that.”

But, hey, so long as the vile shit is in line with the “appropriate” idealogy on these boards, some extremes get a pass it seems.
These boards were much more fun when it was debate and catfighting rather than an obvious clique.

Fighting ignorance? This is turning into a fucking popularity contest.

Maybe I’ll start a thread stating all message board moderators are evil and deserve to die, and that the deaths will make the world a better place. Any bets on the number of posts to that thread before I’m banned and the thread is locked?

This is becoming a fucking joke. Debate? Heh, with fewer and fewer exceptions, it’s one group shouting down another with the admins facilitating it all.

[Giraffe]

@Monty

I’m with the Airman on this…what, exactly, do the mods consider to be “beyond the pale” on this death wishing thing? What do they consider to be wishing death?

The rule is specifically against wishing death on another poster. This usually requires an unambiguous statement clearly directed at the poster, e.g. “I hope someone comes to your house and stabs you to death”. A statement wishing death on a group of which a member happens to belong, e.g. “Stupid used car salesmen – I wish they would all die a painful death” is not covered by the rule.