Irrelevant, but it just shows how pitiful you’ve become in attempting to stifle anyone who supports the Iraqi government and MNF forces despite the abuses, the wrongdoings and incompetence of what’s happened.
Why are you constantly asking me to enlist? I don’t see the reasons as to why my position on this war and the struggle of the Iraqi people equals I must have to join the armed forces where opposing the war means not having to do a damned thing yourself.
If it troubles you that much that I support the Iraq war, then either
A) Ignore me
B) Challenge my position without the cliche of ‘why don’t you join the army’
Yes, because MNF approve of the butchering of Iraqi civilians, there’s a process called ‘gathering of evidence’ and then ‘conviction’ those people are going to prison, they are going to be charged. I don’t know why me supporting the war somehow has lead you and others to believe that I somehow gloss over the crimes committed by Coalition troops. :rolleyes:
I’m sure the people who’ve voted for their respective political parties, all 12 million of them voters, are actually content to see a government voted in by them, representative of them, to be in office after 3 years.
But then again, we’ll hear the same old ‘voting is not valid under UN mandated occupation where the UN validated the election process’
Because you seem willing to embrace any sacrifice for your goals, as long as it’s other people who do the sacrificing. It rather undercuts your moral authority, I’m afraid.
No war = no crimes. Supporting the war means you support the crimes; it’s a package.
Yeah, sure they love a foreign dominated puppet government, imposed at gunpoint.
Shame you’re not in Iraq getting rid of the occupation you’re so morally against, and the ‘invalid elections’ held under it, even though declared valid by the UN.
I can use the insurgents as the people who are overthrowing the ‘puppet government’ for people like you who do not perform any sacrifice, works both ways.
:rolleyes: Because it’s so clearly black and white, and for your information,
No war = Saddam gassing Kurds, butchering Shias, repression of everyone.
Supporting the war in Iraq does not mean I support the crimes, any more so than people who oppose it support the insurgents. But then again that would be lost on a person like you.
No one forced those 12 million people, and 8 million beforehand to vote for the parties on offer, they did it allll by themselves. But again you don’t want to admit anything positive from the Iraq war do you?
Sorry to intrude Ryan, but I’d be interested in hearing a little elaboration a couple of points if you have time.
I think this statement is rather misleading. As far as I know, the Halabja massacre was the only recorded incident where Saddam used gas against the Kurds. 5000 people are estimated to have died in that attack, which equates to about 3 months worth of casualties in Baghdad today. Is there any hard evidence that Saddam would have launched another gas attack on the Kurdish minority if left in power? The way you’ve phrased your statement implies Saddam was embarking on an active genocidal campaign at the time of our invasion.
Secondly, I’ve noticed that you repeatedly deflect salient points about the human toll of the Iraq war by pointing to the seedlings of democracy that have been planted there. Your argument seems to be that the establishment of representative democratic government is worth any amount of Iraqi sacrifice.
One of my big fears is that, given the chance, Iraqi’s will use democracy as a gangplank to theocracy, freely voting to pull their freedoms out by the root. Their voting choices thus far generally bear out my concerns.
If Iraq does become a repressive theocracy (a phrase which, incidentally, is entirely tautological given the utter incompatability of political Islam with human rights) would you still think the Iraq war was justified? After all, should such an unfortunate event occur, the Iraqi’s would have at least made the choice democratically.
So erm, because Iraqi people don’t care too much about the political process, we shouldn’t of helped them elect the people they wanted into office?
The Green Zone is actually patrolled by MNF and Iraqi forces. Besides, I don’t see a problem with this considering the security situation, unless you’re advocating political leaders risk blatant death in order to make a point.
George Kaplin
No, but then again he would of just cleared out the Kurds from hundreds of villages and the city of Kirkuk to ensure Arabisation of the Iraqi Oil supplies, hence the reason why the Kurdish authorities want them back within the Autonomous region.
Sorry if I did, however it does not excuse his actions, even if they were 15-20 years ago.
Yes it is, Iraqis themselves are putting themselves out on the line to ensure that the days of dictatorship won’t come back, the elections, the ways in which clearly opposing political parties are trying to work out a government and
Won’t happen, because the ideologies of each ‘theocrat’ has to contend with the religious establisment of Shia Iraqis (That’s Sistani, not Sadr) that politics and religion should be seperate, and not the Khomeinist ideal that happened in Iran. If theocracy came out in Iraq, there would be a civil war and kurdish independence, it’s as simple as that. No one would want to remain in the political process and arms would be taken up to fight it.
If they made the choice for theocracy, then of course it would be wrong. However I don’t see that happening. Political Islam maybe incompatible with Human rights, but that doesn’t mean the institutions that are in Iraq cannot prevent the diluting of the ideology over compromise, which we’ve seen even with the entry of Malki as PM, an Islamist himself, a man who purged numerous Baathists and uncompromising in the least, has himself declared a desire to disarm militias, arrange a national reconcilation conference, and a review of the constitution for the Sunni minority even though a prominent Shia (Al Hakim) has stated otherwise.
It’s not all black and white, like so many people seem to be telling me on this board and then shouting ‘chickenhawk’ :rolleyes:
Big deal, I can get a Iraqi war vet blog to tell you otherwise. Some will be affected by the war more than others, but it doesn’t equal that every US soldier is out there intentionally shooting up civilians for kicks, they’re in the middle of an Urban insurgency, hence things like the quote you made are going to happen, but it doesn’t blind me to the fact why we’re still there, and why we must help the Iraqis field competent and effective security forces with MNF support until the job is done.
This man was in Mosul at the height of the uprising after the invasion of Fallujah. Not every Coalition Soldier is a raging psychopath wanting to kill some ‘ragheads’
Secondly, what is this crap about “helping them elect” the people thay want into office"? Isn’t that what democracy is all about? Why the fuck do they need your “help” to elect anyone? All you’re doing is validating Der Trihs’s argument about an election held under gunpoint.
First off let’s get rid of illusions. The Green Zone is uterlly by the US and some of its Iraqi lackeys, NOT the MNF – which is just an euphemism for something that never existed in this particular power-grab.
I’ve long realized you’re clueless on this whole affair beyond parroting de excuse d’jour. But it just so happens that if the chosen (acording to you) leaders of Iraq can’t go beyond the Green Zone, all that makes them, are puppets at the beck and call of US force. Hopefully you’ll understand the sentiment without further explanation.
Some fucking democrac
1-Saddam had all three major ethnicities pretty much under control. We can obviously debate the way he went about it, just as we’re curently debating why the change in the status quo has only driven Iraq downhill.
Excellent! We agree on something at last. Trust you’ll find equal treatment for Pinochet and Kisssinger just as fair.
Yes it is, Iraqis themselves are putting themselves out on the line to ensure that the days of dictatorship won’t come back, the elections, the ways in which clearly opposing political parties are trying to work out a government and
Mrs Cleo has nothing on you. Other than oftenly being rather obtuse and completlely wrong.
Seriously, do you have any fucking idea of what you speak of? Because the above paragraph means less than nathing.
Congrats. A rare feat.
If they made the choice for theocracy, then of course it would be wrong. However I don’t see that happening. Political Islam maybe incompatible with Human rights, but that doesn’t mean the institutions that are in Iraq .
It’s not all black and white, like so many people seem to be telling me on this board and then shouting ‘chickenhawk’ :rolleyes:
Almost every army in the world trains/brainwashes their constituents to not only agree with whatever Mad Mission it’s set to, but few are the ones that can see right through the bullshit.
Surely not; mostly they are cannonfodder paid not to think too much.
The US surely could use any number of Jessie Macbeths right about now. If only for sanity’s sake.
And yes, I am positively sure you won’t be one of them. You’re way too commited to your cowardly chickenhawk policies. And hell, why not? Any and all the bloodshedding will be done by people you have litle regrd and/or connections with.
madmonk28, I would enjoy meeting with you when your schedule permits. Please respond to this thread at your convenience. I’m in the Baltimore-Washington area, but travel some.
PS: I never got to the Sheraton, but passed nearby when I bought rugs from that local guy who sells from his Mercury Marquis in the USAID area.
That’s not the point, if I cannot support the war without being there, then in turn you cannot be against it by not being there either. So quit trying to stifle debate on the subject on the basis on whether I would go to such lengths in showing my support.
Well, because urm, Al Queda in Iraq who’ve resorted to outright terrorism against the Iraqi population has stated that Democracy is un-Islamic and should be prevented from happening within Iraq, THAT’S why and that’s also the reason as to why we’re helping them elect the people THEY want into office.
An election held under gunpoint would be surmounted to electing people the MNF wanted in office and not the other way round.
What power grab? If I recall correctly, the Iraqi government elected by the people of Iraq are the only people who’ve benefited to the ‘powergrab’ in the first place. Iraqi lackeys? Iraq has been pretty independent in it’s policies on how it’s perceived in the world and how it rules it’s country.
They can’t go beyond the Green Zone because they’ll be immediately killed, so in that environment, where just about ANYONE can be executed for showing any affiliation for one types of people or another, it makes sense to be in a protected zone where they can carry out governance of the country without threat of constant terrorist attacks. What’s the point of getting an elected functioning government if it can’t even carry out it’s daily operations if constantly attacked at the head by terrorist groups, it’s just common sense, something which yourself are completely clueless about in your blind hatred for anything the MNF does there.
Puppets aren’t elected fairly let alone validated by the UN. Unless you’re going to say the Afghan President, all of its cabinet members and members of parliaments are puppets as well?
Yeah a fucking democracy which has enabled the largest bloc of voters in the country to vote for who THEY want and not who has been dicated too by a minority leader.
If he had them in ‘good control’ as you put it, there wouldn’t be legacies of the Anfal campaign, or the Shia uprisings, or the countless repressions and massacres of civilians to maintain his control and rule.
I didn’t know that powersharing = going downhill. The only way is up.
Of course.
Oh but helping them secure polling booths and the election in general is ‘holding the determination of an Iraqi people at gunpoint’ thanks for your hypocritical remark which has just voided what you said in the beginning.
Or the fact you know nothing of Shia Arabs in Iraq and what the culture of the religious leadership is like compared to the Iranian version of Shia Islam.
If I knew nothing of what I would speak of, I would expect from you in reply a Tamerlane-esque response to what I had just stated, but since you cannot reply to me without a bunch of profanities, it shows how dumb you are in not being able to carry an adequate arguement.
Yeah it is, because it just shows that someone much much younger than you has more of a grasp on world affairs rather than just the odd political soundbyte.
So supporting any war where the people/government of Iraq are pretty much fighting against the forces of tyranny/repression and outright slaughter is tantamount to ‘brainwashing?’
That’s right, generalise how the usual American soldier thinks, why they’re all just dumb virginia farmboys from the good ole’ south right? :rolleyes:
No, the US needs more Michael Yon’s, not political footballs.
You don’t even know who I am and already you make wild accusations and assumptions as to what I’ll do and who I am. There’s nothing cowardly to supporting the MNF mission and Iraqis to bringing a democracy and freedom to the the country. Strange how you hate the war yet forget this part.
Kind regards,
~J
[/QUOTE]
Irrelevant, like I said in the beginning, if everyone who supports the war has to somehow go to the country to show that support, then I expect the same by people who oppose it. Leave the slogans at home redfury, and try to come back with some actual information about the people you’re trying to defend.:rolleyes:
Ryan_Liam, do you think that before this war/occupation/foray into the desert/whatever you wish to label it that people in Iraq overwhelmingly wanted Saddam out?
Now that Saddam is out and their world is completely different and foreign to them, do you think those same people would be a little more careful on what they wish for in the future?
How has this extended skirmish made things better? It’s easy to say that people now have a democratic government, but do you think we’d go out there to do it? We could do the same thing in Africa, but we haven’t. Why in Iraq and not in Africa?
At the end of our journey, what would you want to see done?
Yes? They put the situation of MNF forces leaving to a vote in Parliament, however all parties recognise the situation in which Iraqi security forces need MNF forces to train them and also to keep them in check due to sectarian issues.
That’s strange because the Iraqi government is pretty independent of US intentions no matter how much you want to spin it around to make it look like a puppet of the US. The Iraqi government is more representative, fairly elected and recognised by nearly all the governments in the UN. Yet you still clamour for this tag of ‘puppet government’
Shooting insurgents who decapitate and butcher large sections of the Iraq people, try to divide it’s society and do not believe in democracy is resistance. You got it the wrong way round. And if you believed in a moral and just society, you would want the Iraqi government to succeed regardless of the intentions of how it got there.
That’s not the question, the question was why is it that me supporting the MNF and the Iraqi government is tantamount to brainwashing, where supporting its downfall is not? Double standards go against your version of fairness :rolleyes:
Yes? 80% of the county is either Shia or Kurd, with Sunnis making up 20% so I can safely say that the majority of the country wanted Saddam out of government.
Nope, state terrorism vs non state terrorism is the debate there, which is better.
It depends on the situation, in the Middle East, the area has been one of the most repressive in terms of representation and religious fanaticism for years, it had to change, by force if necessary.
You have to realise though is that not every country in the entire world can be liberated at the same time.
A fully representative Iraqi government which respects human rights and successful economic leader in the Arab world.
The idea that ademocracy had something to do with us going to Iraq is laughable. This is another colonial war. We are after oil and setting up bases in the middle east. Sadaam was no threat to the countries around him and thats what the Turks said when we wanted to launch fron their land. We could have fixed the oil supply to Iraq ,fixed the water supply and the electricity. We claim we cant control the territory to do that,but we are moving along ahead of schedule on the “embassy” that is as large as the Vatican. We have 16 brick and mortor bases “permanent” . For an idea of life in Iraq, I suggest blogs Baghdad Burning, A Family In Iraq, and Free Iraq. Its from the view of them who live there.;