Sex versus Violence

My son is 13 and a voracious reader. He will read anything he finds laying around the house. He especially enjoys Sci-Fi/Fantasy, History, True Crime and Romance. That right, Romance. These romances lie around the house because I read and write them (I am not ashamed, just don’t tell anybody ‘kay?).

When I tell people this about my son I invariably get the same response. “You let your son read romances? Don’t you have a problem with all that S.E.X.?” And the answer is: No. The sex in romance novels is loving and consensual (bodice-rippers died with disco) and is, IMO, one of the best introduction to the world of “sexy” writing a child can get.

No one --not one single person– objected to the Sci-Fi/Fantasy or True Crime books. The True Crime is what worries me the most (which is not to say that I worry that much). No one thought that my son’s psyche could be damaged by reading about being run through with swords, beheadings, having your fingers bitten off by someone who then falls into a bubbling pit of lava. . . you get the idea. It is the same with movies. An Officer and a Gentleman? Nope. The Patriot? Sure!

Why? Why are we so much more concerned about our children and sex than our children and violence? Are there some psychological or developmental facts that I’m not understanding? Are we supposed to shield our children from both sex and violence until that magical age of 18?

Did they really spell out S.E.X?

Nah, I was just trying to convey the prudish disbelief with words.

You know, I’ve wondered about this for a long time. I can’t understand why it’s all right to show people getting shot, stabbed, burned, mutilated, tortured…etc. on television, but networks can’t show breasts, and even Skinemax can’t show an erect penis.

I think a lot of adults may just be uncomfortable with the contradictions that seem inherent in portrayals of sex vs portrayals of violence. I mean, if I’m watching a movie with my kid and he sees some guy stab another guy, it’s easy to say, “That’s bad. That’s mean. You never ever ever do that.” If you see some guy mouthing a woman’s breasts, what exactly do you say? “That’s bad, but it’s ok when Daddy does it to Mommy?” “That’s only good if you’re in love, or if you like her a lot, and she has to like you too, and you really ought to make sure you at least know each other’s last names, and you really ought to be 18 before you do that, but you’ll probably do it by the time you’re 16?”

I mean, violence: “It’s never ok to do that.”
Sex: “You can’t do that to your sister, but Daddy can do it to Mommy. And Mommy doesn’t mind.”

There are a lot of complicated ways to look at it. And while everyone can pretty much agree that it’s wrong to shoot another person, PERIOD, how many people necessarily agree on sex?
“You can’t do that 'til you’re married.”
“You can’t do that 'til you’re an adult.”
“You can’t do that unless you’re in love.”
“You can’t do that unless the girl says ‘yes.’”
You even have the folks who might have grown up in a household of pagan swingers…“You can do that, but you need to stay indoors. And you can’t talk to your friends about it or Social Services will come take you away, because the law says that’s bad even though we don’t.”

Too many variables and too many adults who are uncomfortable dealing with those variables, in my opinion. I still don’t know exactly what kind of instruction I’m going to give my kids, and one of them’s 5 already.

Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think they would have been so suprised if you told them your 13 daughter was reading those type of novels.

Excellent, Hamadryad. That was the best explanation I’ve ever encountered.

One point I’d like to add - while preteen boys are generally not aware of the sexual aspects of society, they are violent little bastards. That’s why they have an easier time accepting violence then they do S.E.X.

Sex versus violence … bush versus gore? :smiley:

Hamadryad: But you should be having these types of conversations with your children, no matter how uncomfortable it may make you. (I mean you in the general sense). As for violence always being bad: the finger biting, falling into lava bit is from The Hobbit and it was a good thing that Frodo got his finger bit off and Gollum (sp?) fell into the fiery pit. Talking to your children about what they are reading and viewing is just good parenting as I’m sure you know.

Spooje: You may be right. But my daughter is mainly interested in Harry Potter, Buffy and the Boy Bands so I can’t give you a personal view on that.

Biggirl: I could not agree more that (the generic) you should talk to your kids about ALL of those aspects. I’m just saying that “right” and “wrong” tend to be a LOT more ambiguous and subject to personal morality in sexuality than in violence.

***I mean, violence: “It’s never ok to do that.” ***

I’m not sure it’s that simple, though. In classic action films, there is plenty of violence that is implied to be acceptable. If you’re the hero, defending the world from the bad guys, it’s okay, right?

I try to shield my children from depictions of violence because I don’t think they need to be frightened unneccessarily. It’s tricky, though, because violence doesn’t have to be gory. And gore doesn’t have to be violent. My 8yo son likes to watch Trauma: Life in the ER with me. The first few times he watched I worried that he would find it disturbing or frightening. He didn’t; he was fascinated. I think a lot of people might question whether it was appropriate for him to watch open heart surgery. But those same people might never question his viewing of Power Rangers which, to my mind, overtly implies that a physical fight is the answer to any conflict.

We play the same sort of balancing act with sexual themes as well. We don’t have any problem with our children looking a naked bodies, and knowing that people enjoy being affectionate with each other is, I think, not just harmless but important. Of course, they don’t need to see people miming sex acts, and there is a huge grey area in between.

We can’t (IMHO shouldn’t) shield them entirely until they reach adulthood. But we can allow them their innocence and parcel out the realities of the world bit by bit as they become able to understand it.

Very well put, Hamadryad. I’d like to add also that the negative consequences of a violent act can be readily portrayed on television or in a movie—the grieving family, the pain of death or injury etc. Not so often with the possible negative outcomes of S.E.X. (I ALWAYS spell it :)) Not easily, anyway. It’s difficult to convey the damage to a family done by an unfaithful parent, or the emotional devastation of sexual abuse of a minor.

This is providing, of course, that the subject of the story is not the act itself. We’ve all unfortunately seen poorly executed television shows attempting to deal with these very subjects. The point is, in keeping with Hamadryad’s assertions, that unlike with violence, the consequences of S.E.X. can be ambiguous at best.

Thank you, and Goodnight.

Actually, it’s from The Return of the King, but uhh… don’t mind me, go on with the conversation.

Think you make some good points, biggirl and hamydryad. I guess I have to say, tho, that I don’t think it is “okay” to have all the violence on TV and films, or that we need more sex to balance things out. You are certainly correct. With much violence it is easier to explain in terms of good vs bad. The good guy uses violence, but that is “okay” because he is a good guy. And my kids certainly know a lot about sexuality, reproduction, and profanity, but they seem somewhat uncomfortable with them on screen (at least in mixed company, or with their parents.)

What my kids have the most difficulty with is movies that send unclear messages. For example, they were really bothered by Mars Attacks. As best I can figure out, the were really confused that these little cartoony looking guys were walking around provclaiming to mean no one harm, and then killing everyone in pretty gross ways. Another that really bothered them was the end of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Man, were they bawling.

Here’s another example. My 11 yr old son is really into science fiction and war movies and books. He really wanted to watch the Terminator. Yes, it is R rated, but I thought it was just because it was pretty scary, and it had been some time since I watched it. Well, in the middle of it, there is a scene where Linda Hamilton gets impregnated by future-boy. Color me priggish, but I don’t see why the movie was improved by a shot of Linda rocking on top of her stud with breasts a swinging.

Similar to a problem I have with many other movies. Say, The Phantom. In the first ten minutes or so, they used maybe 5 pretty vulgar passages of swearing, entirely gratuitously. Then nothing for the rest of the flick. Seemed to me for no reason other than to avoid a G or PG rating.

Damn, I’m not adding anything with these disjointed observations. I agree with you that people accept violence much more readily than consensual sex, and I don’t agree with or understand that. But, IMO, films and media aimed at youth could be much less graphic about both.

I still get a kick out of the fact that we have to clean up British shows for the sex, and they have to clean up our shows for the violence. We’re a weird combination of Puritan values and western Manifest Destiny.

“I object to all this sex on the telly - I mean, I keep falling off!” - M. Python

Esprix

Well, I guess violent sex is right out…

Hi there fellow dopers (I always feel like I’m at a NA meeting when I hear that sentance)!

I just wanted to add that things are a little different in Europe than America. I come from Iceland where sexuality certainly is something most people are bashful about around their kids, but the TV stations show a lot more of it than in the US of A.

The result has so far not been a heard of sexcrazed, seriously disturbed kids, just wanted to let you know it doesn’t seem to harm them on a large scale :slight_smile:

I used to work for the local soccer league in Reykjavik (Iceland) where I had to deal with a lot of kids from 8-12. They knew too much I always thought, but I guess the only negative effect I noticed was how it freaked all us adults out, and still does. The coach even had to forbid the 9 and 10 year olds to masturbate in the showers! Boy was I glad that was on my day off…, geez.

One of the coaches was even a lesbian and that opened that whole can of worms for 'em. But at least they got a frank talk about how people are different, rather than a schoolyard tale of “faggots”. I think it’s about the message, rather than the content, which they will eventually learn about anyway.
However, I concede that people’s views on what the message about sex should be vary widely.

But my point is that sex is something everyone finds out about eventually and hopefully come to accept as a normal part of life. Violence is almost always destructive on the other hand and in real life most people will always view themselves as “the good guy”, thereby justifying any violence they may care to use uppon “the bad guys”. I saw some very brutal samples of this during my work at the soccer league, blood and tears flowed almost daily.

Also, might I ad, the kids thought the good guys from Star Wars sucked, their favorites were guys like Darth Maul. Good guys vs. bad guys indeed… :slight_smile: Life just isn’t that black and white anyway.

Anyway, I think this post is long enough for now. :slight_smile:

  • G. Raven

I think the reason violence is more acceptable than sex on television is this:

Sex - normally evokes a kind of emotional and physical state of openness and vulnerability. A nakedness in more than just the physical sense. This is true even in the case of simple recreational sex between two or more consenting adults.

Violence - evokes a closed psycological state. A state of defensive and aggressive behaviour. It’s a more primal kind of emotion because it often appeals to our survival fight-or-flight mechanism. It’s more viciral because nothing demands and more immediate response than a threat to one’s very life (or the life of a loved one).

Add to that the fact that women are still largely attracted to men who yield certain power (physical, financial, social) which directly translates into their ability to protect her and her children and you have a recepie for a species that relates to violence on a very basic level regardless of how they rationalize it.

Now this is not to say that the more violent the male the more attrative he is to the female gender. There is certainly a level at which highly aggressive individuals are seen to be a threat. Still, ability to protect and win battles is seen as a sign of verility and strength by both genders. It’s no surprise that our heros in movies manage to balance strength and compassion better than the villains who seem to posess great strength (and often intellect) but little compassion.

So what is television teaching our kids by seemingly glorifying violence? Well, it teaches them that sometimes violence is the only way of resolving a conflict but it must be tempered with compassion. There must be sufficient cause to resort to violence and once the villain is vanquished, peace must return to rule the day.

Now I think it’s silly to compare/contrast a Hollywood movie script to real life events. Few of us are trapped in office buildings while terrorists hold our wives hostage. Few of us are police officers who are involved in international money laundering scams involving foreign dimplomats. Few of us are put in a position to defend all humanity from futuristic androids who’ve travelled through time to change history.

It’s hard to make judgements about the levels of violence in Hollywood films based on our daily lives. Given the movie plot lines, I hardly ever think that the level of violence is unjustified. Bad guys doing bad things to good (innocent) people calls for the good guys to respond decisively, violently and directly at the root cause of the problem. Having the good guys invite the bad guys to a counselling session to discuss the root cause for their anti-social behaviour would not only be boring but completely unrealistic. If someone holds a gun to your head, your first instinct is fight-or-flight, not an urge to psycho-analize the underlying cause behind your aggressor’s behaviour.

Back to sex for a moment. In contrast to violence, the events leading up to sex are much more subtle and personal. The romance, the wooing, the physical attraction the mental game play is all very subtle and difficult to translate into a movie that will portray a healthy emotional and physical relationship as a direct result of common interests and physical attraction. So unless you are making a porno film (where the pretext for sex is as simple as two people in the same camera frame) the film maker would be hard pressed to deliver an attention grabbing film of two people dating and getting to know each other. Yes, there are plenty of romantic films that portray people meeting and falling in love under both funny and tragic circumstances that don’t include violence. However, the minute actual sex is introduced into the story line, there is an outcry about how the movie uses gratuitous sex too freely and unnecessarily. Perhaps it’s the Puritanical aspect of society. Perhaps it’s the religious influences. But my money is on the idea that violence appeals more to our core being than sex simply because one can identify to a threat to one’s life more immediately than to sexual game play. Also, one must keep in mind that one person’s sexual turn on is another person’s sexual turn off, while a threat to one’s life is percieved fairly equally by most if not all.

You make an excellent point about power and human nature.

However, I feel you are overgeneralizing when you say that “we” don’t see violence as being worse than sex on TV. America is actually not alone, but there are very many countries (the UK for example) that have it the other way around.

Hence the earlier comment someone made about having to cross-edit movies sent between the US and UK. The UK don’t allow much violence while the US allows little or no sex.

Looking at the big picture, I think sensitivity to the two issues is cultural. Otherwise all nations would have the same tolerance against violence as the US and as little tolerance against sex as they exhibit.

My bet is on the puritanistic roots of the US culture, it was after all founded in part by puritans escaping from Holland and England, who had to fight for their independance but had HUGE hangups about their sexuality.

Those are my two cents, pence, jiao, whatever :wink:

G. Raven Johnson

“Raven is my middle name”

Violence is easier than sex. It is easier to explain. It is easier emotionally. So what we Americans do in response to this complexity is to shield our children from it so we don’t have to even think about it.

My neighbor thinks I’m on step away from actually abusing my children because she saw my son reading “Petals on the Water” (I think. I don’t have the book in front of me). I was all set to agree with her, what with all the coffins being made at the end of the book. But that was not what scandalized her.

Is actually reading about the sexual act bad for children? Is reading about a stabbing bad for children?

LOL!!! Welcome to my new sig line Milo!