Please, parents, don’t spoil your kids! That’s what uncles and aunts are for!
I had a friend in high school who wanted an after-school snack one day but couldn’t make herself a sandwich because she didn’t know where the peanut butter was. Or the knives.
She was in 11th grade and her mom still made her a sack lunch, and my friend would open it up every day and bitch about the crappy sandwich her mom made, but she never made her own sandwich.
I couldn’t tell you how she turned out, except that at about age 23 she lived in her parents’ garage and had no plans to move out, was working on her bachelors degree, and had a vague plan of taking over her parents’ house when they died, which was probably a good forty years in the future.
Well, I think I’ll chip in my reply as a college student who recently moved out.
I don’t think I was spoiled. We were upper middle class, and I didn’t really ever get anything because I threw a temper tantrum for it. That was instead a ticket for a spanking/being sent to my room/grounding. My room never had a TV or a computer in it, and often I would be told “Go to your room, no books, no radios, no toys. AND THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU’VE DONE!”
As long as I can remember, I’ve helped out around the house in some manner. Setting the table and clearing it have been jobs for the 4 children essentially from the time we could be trusted not to drop the plates and glasses. We were also in charge of picking up our rooms and getting our stuff out of the family parts of the house when told. We got allowance, but until I was about 10, it wasn’t much, but I don’t remember the amount. For friends birthdays, we went to the store with the parentals and got to pick something out at $10 or less.
Then, my parents got some Teach-Your-Kids-To-Manage-Money book, and they changed the allowance system. It had always been “We don’t pay you to do chores, because that’s what families do, but if you don’t, no allowance this week” but they added a new set of wrinkles. Each child got a weekly amount equal to their age in years. However, I couldn’t just take my $10 a week and buy Power Ranger toys. It was split up in a mandatory manner: 25% for short term savings, which I could do whatever I wanted with, as long as it wasn’t illegal or dangerous. 25% went to medium term saving, which was for things like other people’s birthday gifts or something you had been saving up for and had to be approved by the parents, which was generally simple if you were reasonable. 25% went straight into the bank account as long term savings. 10% was for charity. And 15% went into a kids “tax fund” that we could use to buy things we agreed on.
This was the useful “life isn’t fair, everyone pays taxes” lesson, except that we got to spend it on cool things, like 6 Flags tickets and trips to the arcade instead of roads and other boring stuff. It also taught us basic politics. “Ok sis, the brother and I agree to let you get your Barbie if you’ll vote for a trip to Nickelrama.” Last year, with the addition of a 4th voter, it no longer had to be unanimous, as a 3-1 vote could still win. Small children can be rather devious.
This new system came with new chore responsibilities as we got older. Vacuuming, dusting, cleaning the bathroom rotated amongst the kids. At about 13 I started mowing our lawn for pay, and as the siblings got to that age they shared the responsibility. It ebbed and flowed between fighting over the cash or who’s turn it wasn’t because we thought it was too hot outside.
For good grades (As and maybe 1 B) we got a treat each six weeks if we could get my dad to remember. An ice cream cone at Braums or a Blockbuster movie.
I gained a working knowledge of cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc. We’ll see over the next few months if it’s good enough.
Trust me, it’s good enough. 
I knew people that even by the end of college still hadn’t figured out the whole laundry and cooking thing.
In college, I once had a roommate who, at 21, had her mother drive two hours each way every week to pick up her dirty laundry, bring her clean laundry, and bring her a week’s worth of home-cooked, frozen meals. She did not know how to use a vacuum cleaner, and she called maintenance to change a light bulb over the kitchen sink. She did not know how to put a roll of toilet paper on the spindle, either; she asked me to show her how it worked. I was amazed at her lack of knowledge about living on her own.
My oldest two boys have chores, like throwing the dirty laundry down the basement steps, cleaning their own plates after meals, and helping load/unload the dishwasher. Even the two-year-old can do those. The day the baby starts walking, he’s in charge of putting his own dirty clothes on the laundry pile and picking up his own toys. I don’t intend to follow them around forever, doing their laundry and picking up after them, and I don’t want them to expect their future wives or partners to do that, either.
Oops, ignore this one.
Darth Sensitive, that strikes me as a remarkably good system. I like the idea of the ‘tax fund’ especially.
From my experiences I’d say that spoiling is not necessarily about *what *you give children but *how *you give them things.
My family were not particularly well off and we rarely got expensive toys or games but my brother always got expensive clothing for school so that he could look like all his mates. He also learnt young that sulking and ignoring requests to do chores often meant he’d be yelled at but not forced to comply. Broadly speaking he was momma’s lil darlin’ and was prioritised over my mother and me (though not my father). He was a spoilt, immature brat. And that’s the type of adult he grew up into. After my mother had a stroke I returned home to care for her. This was convenient for everyone as it gave me a home and the reassurance that mum was being looked after properly and it allowed dad to go away with work knowing that everything was fine at home. So while I acted as 24 hour carer my brother (then 27) stayed up all night playing loud computer games, slept through most of the day and expected meals to be made for him and clothes laundered. He didn’t have (and had never had) a job or other demands on his time but it wouldn’t have occurred to him to even just sit with mum for an afternoon. That was for other people. :rolleyes: In the end I got sick of being obliged/pestered into looking after an adult baby and told him and my father that brother could sharpen up/leave the house. He left and has since ceased all contact with my parents because they would not give him things he wanted. That was around six years ago. The last I heard of him was an article in the local paper where he was complaining about how hard his life is.
My little cousins, on the other hand are not in a particularly poor family. Not wealthy but there’s plenty to get by. They have every toy you can think of and at age 10 I was having issues working out what to get them for birthdays etc since they already have so much. I don’t think they have any chores other than feeding their numerous cute kitties occasionally. However, they are also fairly strictly brought up and are not allowed to be rude or obnoxious. Result is they are the sweetest most biddable children and I enjoy being around them.
Some children I once was nanny to are another case entirely. Family was poor and couldn’t afford new toys. I was employed so that the mother could go out to work during the summer. Their mother got them toys from the charity shop (and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that!). Before I began looking after them she told me her parents said the kids were spoiled and she reasoned that they could not be spoiled since their toys were the cheap cast-offs of other kids. Boy was she wrong. Those kids were always getting new toys. They were never required to even obey basic instructions like get off the road. The eldest (4) had no chores and was allowed to run wild. The youngest (2) was too little for chores but I did see her once demanding and getting a pack of sandwich ham from the fridge. There was practically nothing else in that fridge and the ham had been for her mother’s lunch at work all week but the toddler was given it. I was completely stunned by this method of parenting and didn’t stay with the family long!
I don’t think there is anything wrong with showering your children with toys and possessions. That really can’t spoil a child. But the way in which it is done can. Raising a child to believe that s/he is entitled to nice things is a recipe for disaster and will backfire incredibly hard later in life. (I’ll also add that raising a child not to know basic chores is IMHO doing a great disservice to that future adult but it probably doesn’t really matter which method of doing chores is used (paid work or just cos) so long as somehow the child learns to look after itself.
I now relinquish this soapbox for the greater good. 
On chores…
I don’t know if my mom was spoiled with toys and getting whatever she wanted as a kid, but I know she didn’t have many (or any) chores.
As a result, her way of keeping house is very confused and… I don’t know. Like she doesn’t know how to iron either. Or how to do the dishes without leaving soap and food all over them. She doesn’t know how to fold laundry or cook or clean a toilet or sew at all.
The problem with this isn’t just that we end up with the house all awry. The thing is, we have chores. Us girls… her kids. We have chores and we end up not knowing how to do them properly because the person who is supposed to teach us also doesn’t know. I end up learning from my friends’ mothers, from babysitting, from camp, from work, from working on crews in theatre. Mostly from trying to do some task and hearing, “what the hell?! Did nobody ever teach you how to insert task? You’re going to ruin it!”
I guess my point is that I really think not giving kids any chores turns out to be a disservice to them in the end. Even the things that seem really simple like they wouldn’t have to be taught- they do. And this is coming from a teenage girl living in a house with no dishwasher. I truly, truly hate doing chores. But they serve a purpose beyond just being slave labor for my parents
I have two nieces who are these days in their early 20s. Their mother has always spoiled them. If they got bad grades, she’d go scream at their teachers. It wasn’t their fault - the teacher was mean/they have ADHD/etc. If their father wanted them to be punished for doing something bad, their mother would harangue him until he gave in - eventually he just stopped trying to deal with any kind of punishment, because every time his wife would come after him for being “mean.” Wreck the car as a teen? You get a new one! Screw up in college and get kicked out? They pay tons extra (over and above regular tuition) to a local private college to hold the kids’ hands through schooling, give them private tutoring, etc.
The older niece got a teaching degree. She screwed up and didn’t complete a competency-type test by the end of her last semester, so she didn’t actually get a degree then, and had to do that over the summer to get her degree. She still got to walk up on the podium and pick up her diploma cover like everyone else, though. What was the response of this early-20s young lady to her mistake? Why of course, scream bloody murder at her parents because obviously it’s their fault for not continuing to hold her hand. Apparently she spent a couple hours in full-blown bitching mode, and they put up with it.
For her birthday, she wanted a puppy. She begged and whined and finally cried for one from her parents. They gave her one. Of course, she’s “too busy” (partying, work, school) to actually take care of said puppy, so it went to her parents’ house. Fortunately they love the dog, so I hope they follow through on their threat to keep it.
Now she’s out of school. No student loans to pay off. Very nice paying teaching job at a private school. Her parents are paying for her apartment, her car, her car insurance, and IIRC her utilities too. She didn’t get a job over the summer because she wanted to have her summer free, so she’s just been hanging out and spending whatever money she did have saved up. Mmm, wonder what’s going to happen when they finally cut her off - assuming they do.
It certainly felt like that. It’s funny, for a second I thought the “blind” was snarking me-- I’ve heard the sentiment expressed that if you get to adulthood ignorant of something, it’s your own fault because the information is out there and you should have known to go find it. It frustrates me because it basically implies that parents have nothing to teach you; they just need to keep you fed and sheltered and you’ll figure out the rest on your own. Not true at all.
My fiance was raised poor. His mother was sick growing up, and his Dad worked long hours, so he and his sisters took care of a lot of things. It wasn’t so much deliberately assigned chores as it was “If I’d like something to eat tonight and clean clothes for school tomorrow, I ought to see to that.” He’s been on his own and self-sufficient since 19. I am continually astonished at all the stuff he knows how to do, especially because he’s one of those rough-and-tumble macho guys you’d expect to have never met a vacuum cleaner.
His childhood wasn’t always easy. My childhood was enjoyable and carefree, just what my parents wanted to give me. It was not worth the result. My parents expected me to just have figured adulthood out, and were painfully obtuse about the obvious fact that I hadn’t. I think a lot of these parents are just waiting for that magic miracle to happen (rather than pretending that it has and going on with their day) and keep feeding the brat in hopes that someday. . .“Poof” and there’s a grown up.
Some years ago friend of mine performed in a college production of The Secret Garden. Most of the company were college students (as we were) but Mary and Colin were played by younger actors. The girl who played Mary was probably about eleven; she had good stage presence for an young kid but she wasn’t extraordinarily talented.
After the show my friend and I were sitting and chatting in the Green Room, waiting for a few more cast members to finish scrubbing and changing before the post-show gathering. Mary’s mother was sitting near us chatting with another parent.
All of a sudden, Mary’s shrill little voice pierced the low murmur of conversation. “Mo-therrrrr, I have taken off my dress and there is NO ONE to hang it up for me!”
“Just a MINUTE!” her mother replied, annoyed at the interruption but completely un-shocked by the (public) address. She turned to the other parent and said, “Do you see what I have to put up with?”
When I was a kid I generally cleaned the kitchen and living room every day and a lot of times would do the laundry. My step-Mom of course would talk to her friends about how difficult housework was.
My little sister was sick always growing up so she was quite spoiled. My parents would give her all the loose change she picked up off the tables or counters and let her put it in a big coffee can. They’d then buy her whatever she wanted most of the time, and talk about what a great ‘saver’ she was. They still pretty much support her even though she is married. She can’t keep a job more than a few weeks, and has very little concept of the value of money. If my parents cut her off she’d move around from bad situation to bad situation going from guy to guy who’d take care of her, or stay with some friends in some sort of incestuous housemate situation until the drama forced her to shuffle along to the next one. I hope she grows out of it, but she is quite spoiled. When she bitches about my Mom I don’t know whether to believe her or not because they are both serious drama queens.
I did not have to do chores either. But I took them upon myself, because both my parents are slobs. I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s pathological with them: they get uncomfortable, even clinically anxious, if they’re not surrounded by disorder. I think I’ve posted before about the time I transformed the extra room from chaos to an actual guest room. My mom said, “Oh good,” and then dashed up the attic to bring down a metric buttload of junk. Which she left in the extra room, claiming she was going to “go through it.” And of course, never did.
One summer, I was sent to stay with my adult sister, for reasons unknown. Now she’s a very tidy person, as was I, normally, but I was used to living in a community with no kids – none – which meant that I had plenty of time on my hands to keep not only my room tidy, but as much of the rest of the house as I could manage. So when I was suddenly surrounded by kids my own age, and places to go with them, keeping tabs on the room where I was staying was not a priority. I don’t think this was a matter of being spoiled; just a matter of not knowing how to manage my time.
So when Sis declared that I had to clean my room or I couldn’t go anywhere, I was okay with that. It would be nice to be able to find stuff, after all. So I I was happily plugging away when she looked in and said, “See, Mommy doesn’t make you do this stuff…”
WTF? Okay, she didn’t have to grok what I said about time management, especially since I didn’t understand it myself at the time, but for crying out loud, she’d been to the house plenty of times since I was born. She had to have known that our mother didn’t “make” herself do housework. I mean, this was a woman who would not mop the kitchen floor until there was a big spill and wiping it up made a clean spot that had to be balanced out. I “made” myself clean my room at home, and the upstairs bathroom, and any cleaning tasks that I could sneak under my parents’ radar. Don’t “make” me laugh. The only reason I was a slob at Sis’s house was because it was the first time I’d had anything else going on outside the house, not because I normally lay around eating bonbons while my mom scrubbed.
And the funny thing is, my mom did teach me to cook and bake, starting at a very early age. She was good at it, and I got good at it. But imagine if she’d pushed the same agenda with housework. I wouldn’t have been 23 and being told by Mr. Rilch that it’s possible to wash a wall. Heh…Just a few weeks ago, he asked me if I’d taken the blender apart to wash it. (I’ve only started using the blender recently; prior to that, he washed it because he was the only one using it.)
“You have to do that?”
“Well, yeah! Liquids seep down into there and fester! Didn’t your mom ever tell you th—”
“[in unison] BWAH-HAH-HAH!”
So anyway, spoiling. I think spoiling only comes into play if the parents have a certain standard, but don’t insist that the kid(s) meet it. If their own standards are sub-par, then it’s not a discipline problem, which I think is what spoiling comes down to. It’s just a bad example.
When I think of spoiled, I think of my aunt and uncle, who are still in their 20s. My grandmother has always felt that they could do no wrong, especially my uncle, who was the most disrespectful, mean kid I’ve ever known. They got TVs and designer clothes but worst of all, they got a childhood with virtually no consequences for their bad behavior.
My aunt and my uncle’s girlfriend both got pregnant within about three months of one another. They both dropped out of school.
End result?
My grandmother is still supporting her two adult children, and their four kids (aged 2, 6, 8, and 8) despite the fact that she has a tissue disease that is tearing her body apart. And her precious son can still do no wrong. The fact that he’s not working is the government’s fault, and his drug addiction has to do with his ADD.
I know ultimately it’s her responsibility to learn to say ‘‘no,’’ but I’m still a little bitter toward my aunt and uncle for putting her through what they do. I’ve always felt it was my duty to be the responsible one, and take care of my grandparents–because their actual children could give a shit less about their needs. It really angers me.
ETA: I don’t think ‘‘not having chores’’ constitutes spoiled. My husband somehow got to college without knowing how to do his own laundry. But he’s hardly spoiled. I think it has more to do with whether or not your behavior has consequences.
I agree that a lack of chores does not necessarily equal spoiled. But, as **Obsidian ** and SurrenderDorothy’s stories show, running a household efficiently takes a series of learned skills. If your kids leave home without learning those skills, I think you’ve failed a little bit in preparing them for adulthood. Raising kids doesn’t just mean raising someone who gets into a good college; it means raising someone who can function as an independent adult and good spouse.
My mom wouldn’t just give me chores, she would explicitly teach me, "This is how you clean a bathroom. Step one…, “This is how you iron a shirt. Step one…” By the time I graduated from high school, I could prepare a Sunday dinner for eight without breaking a sweat. I’m very grateful that I didn’t have to figure this stuff out on my own.
I completely agree with you, but there is a difference between being spoiled and being unprepared (though I’m sure the former could easily lead to the latter.) I washed my own laundry, did the dishes at least once per day, took out the garbage whenever it was needed, and often swept/mopped/vacuumed/dusted/cleaned the bathroom as a kid. I received an allowance until my first job at age 13. I was allowed to spend half of my income on whatever I wanted and required to save the other half.
(But nobody ever taught me how to cook. To this day I can barely make chicken and mashed potatoes. I’m kind of jealous you can cook for 8.)
At any rate, I was hardly spoiled, though occasionally I did get some nice material surprises, when business was good.
My husband, on the other hand, didn’t do chores. In fact, his mother still will do his laundry when he comes to visit her for a weekend. But he is not spoiled in the sense that he does not have entitlement issues, he has always been respectful and responsible. And despite my mother’s best efforts, he is much, much better at managing money than I am.
And yet… and yet… I had to teach him how to clean a toilet and a bathtub at age 22, which just strikes me as absurd. I do kind of feel like his parents missed the boat on that one.
My niece, age about 5 at the time, once burst into a full-blown crying jag because she discovered that her 3-year-old brother had cleaned the toilet, and it was supposed to be HER TURN, NO FAIR!!!
Yeah - send her over here, maybe she could teach me!
My parents just didn’t know how to teach me anything practical. I was supposed to “clean my room” when I was 4, but they never actually showed me what that meant. And then they took my inability to do the job as disobedience; we’d fight, they’d give up, and my Grandma thought I was spoiled and indulged. I felt like a failure. I still remember how anxious and overwhelmed I felt when they’d send me to my room to clean it, and I couldn’t. I only figured out how to keep a fairly clean house in the last year, and I’m 42 years old.
/soapbox in the trenches
That’s why I’m such a fan of setting doable goals for little kids (which means that THEY do them, not that I read somewhere that they “ought” to be able to do them - every kid’s different). If they “fail” on a regular basis, then the problem is the system, not the kid. If they can succeed, they’ll do it (although some of them whine more than others - my dd is much tougher to motivate than ds, who likes order). BUT, that doesn’t mean I “have to put up with” her whining; it means it takes more tricks with her (rewards and punishments and supervision) AND that her brother gets more benefits (M&Ms work well) for his behavior. BUT, I don’t ride her ass and say stuff like “why can’t you be like your brother?”; there are days when she outshines him. And shaming is wrong. There are also days when I give up on the whole business and we go to the park 
They are welcome to visit here anytime they want. We have beaches and theme parks, which I will gladly take them to once they’ve cleaned the bathrooms, shampooed the rugs and detailed my car.
I know someone who works with a 50 year old woman who has work there since she graduated high school. She lives with her stay-at-home mother, who makes all her clothes, cooks all her meals and does the housework. She never goes out with the office after work because she has a car service that brings her from Queens to Manhattan and back again.
I wonder what is going to happen when Mommy dies.