"She'll die anyway"

The BBQ Pit
1

I’m fuming.

My grandma is dying of cancer. The stump of her amputated leg is about 4 times its size because of tumours. Radiation therapy could give her some pain relief - at least for a while… BUt do you think the Tasmanian government cares? She can’t get the treatment she needs because they just don’t pay the radiologists enough, and they’re leaving. See here

It’s bad enough that this much loved woman is dying. In fact it’s devastating; but the pit is not the place to go into that and it’s not what this thread is about.

But to be told that she can’t have this treatment she so desperately needs, and which may give her just a little more quality of life, is wrong. Instead of a coupld of hours of radiotherapy to giver her days of relief, she sits there, doped to the eyeballs unable to engage in what little life she has left. Then to top it all of, the beaurocrats response of “she’s dying anyway, it’s not like it will save her life” pours salt into the wound. We live in Australia - we have at our fingertips the best facilities and healthcare in the world, but we can’t spare the money for the dying. I suppose the government figures there’s just no point in trying to win the votes of people who are about to die.

It makes me sick.

2

I am so sorry. That’s terrible. Both of my own grandmothers passed away at the beginning of the month, both from terminal illnesses (cancer and heart troubles, respectively). I, personally, am grateful that I live out-of-Province and wasn’t expected to be around during their decline, when their quality of life was waning. It must be such a difficult time for you, I hope that the coming days bring you and your grandma enduring peace and acceptance.

3

Maybe the radiologists are asking for unreasonable amounts? What about the people who would die if they couldn’t get treatment, are the radiologists treating them? Aren’t there private radiologists?
We’re spending all the money on the war :wink:

4

From what I recall radiologists are asking for pay parity with other Australian states - they get less than half of what radiologists get in some other states. No wonder they’re all leaving - they’re overworked (because they all keep leaving), and they don’t make even close to what they could make elsewhere.

It just really sucks that the sick and dying (and my grandma in particular) get caught in the middle of it all.

And I’m angry that it came to this - I visited 6 months ago and these issues were being raised and people were saying that they were heading for exactly this crisis, and nothing was done.

5

Knowing my share of Tassie doctors and nurses I’m sure they’re gutted about this too. Knowing my share of Tassie bureaucrats and politicians - well most of them I wouldn’t spit on if they were on fire. I am truly sorry that your grandmother is caught in the middle of this. I guess it’s too late to move her to care somewhere on the mainland, but at any rate, that should not be necessary. She should receive adequate care where she is, and it’s heartbreaking that she and others aren’t.

My sympathies are with you and all of your family. My own beloved grandmother died almost 2 years ago, and I still miss her so very much. It’s a hard time.

6

I heard a statistic once that of the money we spend on health care, 90% of it is spent on our last 6 months of life and 50% of that is spent in the last 10 days.

I’m gonna let that hang out there without a cite because it’s not totally relevant here.

But really what you’re looking at with grandma here is a costly treatment to temporarily relieve the pain of a terminally ill person. The money for that comes out of the pocket of people who already feel like they are paying too much for health care or insurance. And, that pain is relieved by the drugs for a fraction of the cost, at the cost that grandma isn’t as “with it” as you’d like to see.

The cold fact of the matter is that decisions like this have to be made. I suspect that the Tasmanian government cares, but is in the unfortunate position of having to tax people to pay for it and having to make decisions like “in an effort to keep costs manageable, we need to outlaw certain therapies in certain cases.”

Still, very sorry about your grandma. I was “lucky” enough to have mine go quickly from an aneurism but my grandpa lingered with cancer. Truth be told, it just would have been better for everyone if there was a nice way to end it months before the actual end.

7

So what you’re saying is bugger those dying in pain and the few precious moments they have left - they just aren’t worth it. :rolleyes:

Where would you draw the line? People who have 1 month or less to live don’t get treatment - 6 months, a year? Fact is we’re all going to die, perhaps we should deny medical care to anyone over 70 - they’re going to die soon and aren’t worth the money. Oh, and let’s not treat poor people or ugly people either - they’re not fit to live. In fact, if you’re not on Trunk’s list of those worthy of treatment, why not go out and shoot yourself now and save us all a great deal of bother.

When she can have the treatment, she is really well - she can go out, she can paint, she can visit friends and her grandchildren, including the ones who are too little to know much about how to behave in hospital, she can live life. When she can’t, she is stuck in hospital, doped to the eyeballs on morphine.

My grandma is very clear that she doesn’t want unnecessary treatment - she’s OK with dying, but she wants to live what life she has left and note waste away in hospital. The money most certainly would not be wasted on my grandma or patients like her.

If you read the linked article, it’s not just terminal patients waiting - but also ones that still have a chance at beating the cancer - or at least would have if they could get treatment. Right now, Tassie can’t even meet acceptable practice for either curable or terminal patients, let alone best practice.

They have these big expensive machines, but won’t pay for people to operate them. The equipment is available - the purchase cost has been paid, there’s just no one to run it.

I agree that there are times when treatment is no longer appropriate, but I also think it is a decision for the patient in consultation with their doctor and family and not some government penny pincher.

8

What I’m saying is that the gov’t has to make decisions about how their health care money is spent and expensive treatments on the terminally ill either come out of the taxpayer pocket, or the treatment for someone else.

Then let the family pay for it.

You simply can’t argue your emotional point while ignoring one major aspect of health care: the incredible costs associated with it.

You know what, in Oregon they have a list of conditions and treatments. And basically, if you fall on the wrong place on this list (some measure of the severity of the condition and the potential of the treatment) you don’t get your treatment.

When the government is paying for health care, this is the kind of situation that simply can’t be avoided.

And this isn’t a rant against national health care, which I think we should have. But I realize that if we do have it, there’s going to be an accounting office somewhere that has to make decisions that aren’t going to look so benign where the rubber meets the road.

9

That’s pretty damn heartless, Trunk. Exactly what I’d expect from someone more concerned over the bottom line than someone’s health and pain.

Besides, with no radiologists available, there’s nobody for the family to pay.

Or hadn’t you noticed that little sticking point.

This is where national health care breaks down, as far as I’m concerned. The government that gives you everything can also take it away.

I do hope you’re never in a position where someone needs to make choices like this for you, Trunk. If you are, though, better it’s you, your family and your doctor, not some bureaucrat somewhere.

10

It may be heartless, but it’s how nationalised health care works. It’s the same in the UK, with the so called “post code lotteries”.

11

Yes, it’s heartless but tell me what the alternative is? Money is not an infinite resource and putting more money in your dying grandmother means that some schoolchild goes without a textbook or a welfare mother doesn’t get enough to make ends meet. Personally, even though it’s heartless, its the LEAST heartless option I can think of which makes it the best solution in my books.

12

You’re talking as if radiotherapy for pain relief were some exotic and expensive treatment. It is neither. In the United States, this woman would be treated quickly and she’d be on her way.

Right now, though, her treatment is being held up, essentially because of a strike. Forgive me for not finding that acceptable.

13

Yes, but now were getting into the technicalities of the argument instead of the principles. The fact that radiotherapy happens to be cheap doesn’t affect the argument that unlimited medical aid to the dying is an idealistic and unrealistic fantasy.

14

Cite?

The money has to come from somewhere, and although you can’t put a price or worth on life, the line has to be draw. What would you rather have, money taken away from the maternity ward, or money put into keeping people who are dying happy? There’s a choice to make, have people who it could’ve easily been prevented die, or have people who are going to die soon happy.
Let’s all keep in mind that in Australia prescriptions and Doctor’s visits most of the time don’t cost a thing.

15

Unless she didn’t have insurance.

16

I’m just going to assume that, in this particular case, the woman in question would be eligible for Medicare.

She is, after all, the grandmother of a grown woman.

Also, I hope the decisions we make at the end of life don’t include the denial of effective pain management to the elderly, just because we have other priorities.

Whoops, looks like that is indeed the case, at least somewhere.

17

Well, after spending a several weeks on the waiting list, she got her treatment. And was able to spend a weekend away with my grandpa.

She said that the poor radiologists that are there are working pretty much non-stop. They don’t take lunch, they don’t have weekends, they are doing everything for these patients because failing them is not an option. They have my respect and gratitude.

But it doesn’t change the heart of the issue…

Here in Australia, we do pay a lot of tax. In fact, I remember reading somewhere (sorry, no cite, I forgot where it was), that we are one of the highest taxing democratic nations. But if you are sick, you get top quality healthcare at little or no out of pocket expense.

And if you’re talking about being a burden on the taxpayer and community - I think she’s more than paid her way. She was a nurse for about 40 years (which makes her a tax payer), she ran a voluntary greif counselling service with the same Holman cancer clinic that now can’t treat her for 10 years, she raised 6 children, all of whom have become valuable members of the community (and also pay tax). She and my grandpa live on a returned serviceman’s pension, they own their own home and are not a burden on the community in other ways.

But it shouldn’t come down to how much a person has contributed or how worthy their life is to determine whether they receive treatment.

The fact is that if she lived in any other state in Australia and pretty much any other western nation, she would have received the treatment she required within a day or two.

We’re not talking extreme measures, we’re talking about providing the dying with dignity and a little bit more time and a measure of quality of life.

(Note too, that it’s not just the dying who are impacted by this issue - those who still have a chance of recovery are also waiting longer than acceptable times for treatment).

18

I don’t think you really have to be eligible for Medicare, everyone gets it, well at least that’s my understanding of it. :confused: But then again, I’ve always been on the lower end of the financial spectrum.

That’s the brilliant thing about living in Australia, regardless of who you are, how much you earn, you can just walk into a lot of doctors and walk out without paying a thing.

I have an implant in my arm. What price did it say on the packet? $220 AUS. What did I pay? $4.50, the normal price to get a script filled. Oh the joys of the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme.

Of course, we have our taxes, but I never really hear people whine about them… not like I hear from people in other countries :rolleyes:
But it’s all worth it because we get free health care! :slight_smile: Sure, if you want to go to the dentist though, it’s about a min. 4 year waiting list :rolleyes: But our campus has a dentist that does checkups for $10 and all other services for 90% price. :smiley:

AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE
OY OY OY

It’s good to see you’re grandmother got her treatment :slight_smile:

19

I’m sorry. I should have said she would be eligible for Medicare in the U.S.

Medicare in America is government funded health care for the elderly.

20

First of all, I’m very sorry to hear about your grandmother, RobinC308. But here’s my opinion on healthcare in general:

  1. Access to “affordable” healthcare is not a right.

  2. Healthcare should be viewed as being no different than any other service. If you want the best service & facilities, you pay more. If you want more basic or scaled-back services, you pay less. If you don’t want service, you pay nothing.

  3. Your healthcare & associated costs are entirely your responsibility, not someone else’s.

  4. It is entirely immoral to force others to pay any percentage of your healthcare bill.