Shootout with gunman kill baby

[Shayna]

@UncleBeer

I would have simply given more time for negotiations to work. This matters not even who fired first. If the perp fired first, the cops could simply fall back to a place of cover, cease fire, and let the negotiator/psychiatrist attempt to do their work.

@UncleBeer

However, I believe the cops had other less catastrophic options they should have pursued prior to that final deadly exchange of gunfire.

Who gives a flying fuck what you, an untrained civilian who wasn’t even on the scene, would have done? How in the bloody hell could you even possibly know what you would have done in their shoes, in that moment, under those circumstances, not all of which you’re even privy to? But since you’re such a know-it-all with all the right answers, it shouldn’t surprise you that the officers in this situation did do exactly what you suggest…

@Los Angeles Times

Seeing that Peña had a gun, the officers called for backup.

When additional officers arrived, Peña shot at them and officers returned fire. Peña retreated into his auto business and reemerged with the child in his arms. He continued firing at the officers, who pulled back. Peña went inside.

That began a standoff in which Peña remained barricaded inside, surrounded by police and occasionally taking random potshots through the walls and out the doors of the building.

About 5 p.m., officers reached Peña by phone and tried to negotiate with him to release his daughter.

Hell, they even TOOK fire WITHOUT RETURNING FIRE when they were inside the building, hoping they could rescue the little girl!

@Los Angeles Times

He said they held their fire even as bullets whizzed by them, trying to reach the open door of the office so that they could see Peña and the toddler.

As they advanced, the officers prepared to launch a flashing device to distract Peña. Just then, a bullet from within the office struck Officer Daniel Sanchez, 39, through the shoulder.

The fucker fired a weapon, numerous times, repeatedly putting innocent civilian lives in danger. The police rescued one in the midst of the perpetrator’s gunfire, and attempted to rescue the other, over the course of several hours, via negotiations handled by trained professionals, letting him talk to relatives, and attempting to use a device that would distract him so they could get to the child. But you, Mr. Armchair Police Captain, know better what should have been done during this dangerous exchange.

@UncleBeer

That story also says that a total of 11 police officers fired their weapons. Again, excessive.

Excessive? You were there and know this? You know exactly how many officers fired their weapons in the first exchange, then how many in the 2nd and how many in the last? Read it for comprehension this time. A TOTAL of 11 officers fired weapons that afternoon. As in, after counting up all the officers who said they’d fired their weapons during any of the 3 exchanges, which all happened separately, 11 hands went up. That doesn’t mean that 11 guys all stormed in at once and opened fire, executioner style.

@Fear Itself

In this case, where the suspect is isolated in an office, withdraw, take cover and wait him out. No hostage negotiator I’ve ever heard of would advocate anything else. This was clearly a case of cops who couldn’t stand to take fire without returning it, no matter what the consequences.

What a bunch of crap.

The first exchange of gunfire happened outside the dealership, when it was just the asshole out there firing at the cops, and any other unfortunate, innocent civilian who might’ve been nearby, and they returned fire. The have to try to take out the guy with the gun.

The second exchange happened when officers were trying to rescue Fuckwad’s stepdaughter, who was trapped behind a locked gate, and in the line of Fuckwad’s fire, as he shot at her and them from inside the building. They had NO CHOICE but to return fire in an effort to protect the innocent civilian they were in the process of trying to save (which they did, thank Og!).

The third exchange happened after police thought Fuckwad was wounded by the SWAT guy that seems to have tried to do what many here have said he should’ve done, which was try to take him out when they thought they had a clear shot at him through a doorway. Assuming they’d hit and injured him, they entered the building, trying to distract him with a “flashing device,” and TOOK FIRE WITHOUT RETURNING IT, while trying to rescue Fuckwad’s child. It was only after an officer was hit that they began shooting inside that building.

Should they have retreated at that point? Maybe so. I wouldn’t know – I wasn’t there and my life wasn’t in danger, so I couldn’t begin to suggest what they should’ve done. I’ll wait for the investigation to be finished before I even hazard a guess on that one. But nothing in the outline of events, as we know it (and I’m sure there’s a whole hell of a lot more we don’t know), remotely resembles “cops who couldn’t stand to take fire without returning it, no matter what the consequences.”

[UncleBeer]

My, what a calm and reasoned opinion you have expressed, Shayna.

About 5 p.m., officers reached Peña by phone and tried to negotiate with him to release his daughter.

Which means the cops attempted negotiations with him for all of 80 minutes before storming the building. Seems to me that a child’s life should be worth a little more effort than that.

The second exchange happened when officers were trying to rescue Fuckwad’s stepdaughter, who was trapped behind a locked gate, and in the line of Fuckwad’s fire, as he shot at her and them from inside the building. They had NO CHOICE but to return fire in an effort to protect the innocent civilian they were in the process of trying to save (which they did, thank Og!).

And quite possibly killed the other one. Further, it should be apparent to anyone that they had another option. Remember the armored vehicle? How 'bout putting it between the stepdaughter and the nutcase? This is in fact a pretty standard procedure in armed standoffs. I see nothing that says the cops tried to do that.

I’d also note that while you’ve taken me to task for giving opinion upon uncertain facts, in doing so, you’ve made the same error. Here’s one: “The fucker fired a weapon, numerous times, repeatedly putting innocent civilian lives in danger.” You were there? You know that? The way I read the stories, the cops had taken steps to evacuate persons in the area who might have been in danger from this lunatic.

But nothing in the outline of events, as we know it (and I’m sure there’s a whole hell of a lot more we don’t know), remotely resembles “cops who couldn’t stand to take fire without returning it, no matter what the consequences.”

Nothing except a number of reports by psychologists on the actions and motivations of cops following similar hostage situations. Whatever you may believe about this particular incident, exactly such a thing has happened in the more than once.

[Shayna]

@UncleBeer

Which means the cops attempted negotiations with him for all of 80 minutes before storming the building. Seems to me that a child’s life should be worth a little more effort than that.

Yes, because they sat with their watches and said, “Hmm, 80 minutes already? Aren’t we done with this shit, yet? I want to get home in time for dinner. Let’s just firebomb the bastard, the hell with whether the baby survives. It’s just not worth it beyond this point”

@UncleBeer

And quite possibly killed the other one. Further, it should be apparent to anyone that they had another option. Remember the armored vehicle? How 'bout putting it between the stepdaughter and the nutcase? This is in fact a pretty standard procedure in armed standoffs. I see nothing that says the cops tried to do that.

Well it’s not apparent to me. I wasn’t there, so I have no clue what other options, if any, might have been available to them. I can see nothing to indicate there was any physical way they could’ve been in a position to do such a thing with an armored vehicle. Not knowing the layout of the property, how you can even suggest such a thing is absurd.

@UncleBeer

I’d also note that while you’ve taken me to task for giving opinion upon uncertain facts, in doing so, you’ve made the same error. Here’s one: “The fucker fired a weapon, numerous times, repeatedly putting innocent civilian lives in danger.” You were there? You know that? The way I read the stories, the cops had taken steps to evacuate persons in the area who might have been in danger from this lunatic.

Wrong. I don’t need to have been there to accurately and factually state that he put innocent lives at stake by repeatedly firing his weapon – namely, that of his step-daughter and his daughter.

@UncleBeer

Nothing except a number of reports by psychologists on the actions and motivations of cops following similar hostage situations. Whatever you may believe about this particular incident, exactly such a thing has happened in the more than once.

Psychologists? Who weren’t there, either? And who were making commentary on other officers involved in other actions at other times under other circumstances? That was a joke, right?

[kimera]

Thank you Shayna. You said what I wanted to say with far but with more elegance than I could ever hope to manage.

You are a fucking idiot UncleBeer. Did you even look at the layout of the building and property where the shooting took place? How in the hell could they have gotten an armored car between the stepdaughter and her crazy attacker? Stop talking out of your ass.

[Fear_Itself]

@Shayna

The have to try to take out the guy with the gun…

Says who? They had a choice; to shoot, or not to shoot. *They chose to shoot. * I believe it was because they hate taking fire without returning it. But for whatever reason, they valued the child’s life less than their own. Pity.

[Fish]

@Fear Itself

But for whatever reason, they valued the child’s life less than their own. Pity.

Um. I’m not sure I’m reading this right. You’re saying they should all have let themselves be killed doing nothing rather than let the child die? That your standard operating procedure for police is not to defend themselves?

I hope I’m reading that wrong.

[GusNSpot]

@Fear Itself

Says who? They had a choice; to shoot, or not to shoot. *They chose to shoot. * I believe it was because they hate taking fire without returning it. But for whatever reason, they valued the child’s life less than their own. Pity.

OK, we’ll go with your preference. the cops hide and do nothing but talk on a bull horn. After 5 hours, the idiot kills his kid, ( or not ) and then randomly shoot up the area and a stray bullet goes across several blocks and goes into your kids room and kills him/her. You will go on TV and praise the cops for the great job they did… correct?

[UncleBeer]

Thank you Shayna. You said what I wanted to say with far but with more elegance than I could ever hope to manage.

Elegance? Sounds more like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. But what do I know; I’m just a fucking idiot who thinks the cops acted irresponsibly by by directing at least dozens of deadly projectiles towards a guy holding a baby as a shield in not one, but three separate exchanges.

Other fucking idiots among us think this is a fine idea and that it’s okay to send a hail of bullets towards the perpetrator and his infant hostage just because the guy was shooting at them. Thic class of fucking idiots seem wholly unable to consider that the cops just might have had other options available to them. But hey, the cops killed the perp, so all’s well that ends well. Never mind the innocent little toddler - fuck her - cops got their man, ergo, must have done the right thing and there couldn’t have been any other options.

Today’s L.A. Times story:

Bratton, while acknowledging the likelihood that police bullets cut down Peña and the toddler, defended his officers against charges from the child’s family and community activists that police haste cost Susie Lopez her life.

Are all these other people protesting the cops “haste” stupid fucking idiots, too?

And hey, here’s a statemnent form the dead guy’s brother who was there:

The suspect’s brother, German Peña, said the police “didn’t have any patience. Knowing that my niece was with him, they should have acted more patiently.”

German Peña said that during the standoff, police rejected family members’ offers to try to reason with his brother.

The L.A. Times also notes that the Sherrif’s board of inquiry is curious to know why the negotiations were cut off.

Did you even look at the layout of the building and property where the shooting took place? How in the hell could they have gotten an armored car between the stepdaughter and her crazy attacker? Stop talking out of your ass.

C’mon. The site of the shootout was a fucking used car dealership. The pictures at the L.A. Times show lots of open space around and on the lot. As does the drawing. The building is surrounded on three sides by an open street, an alley and the car lot. The other side appears to be in close proximity to an apartment building, but a peek at a streetmap reveals an alley between them, too. Open space on all four sides of the building. Plenty of room to manuever an armored car. And you can see a picture of the BearCat here. Surely that thing is capable of pushing automobiles out of its path.

I’m not sure I’m reading this right. You’re saying they should all have let themselves be killed doing nothing rather than let the child die?

Don’t be an asshole. Just consider that perhaps the cops had other options. Nobody is saying that the cops should have just stood there making targets outta themselves. Surely there are other buildings in the neighborhood and their own squad cars where the cops might take cover.

There’s a lot of people here giving me shit for suggesting that the cops had other less deadly options and that I would dare to suggest such without actually having been there. The irony is that each you is excusing the cops actions with the implication that they had no options. Which is exactly the mistake you accuse me of. How can you fuckers know that if you weren’t there either?

[Fear_Itself]

@GusNSpot

OK, we’ll go with your preference. the cops hide and do nothing but talk on a bull horn. After 5 hours, the idiot kills his kid, ( or not ) and then randomly shoot up the area and a stray bullet goes across several blocks and goes into your kids room and kills him/her. You will go on TV and praise the cops for the great job they did… correct?

It all depends. Was this before or after the space aliens intervene with their death ray? :rolleyes:

[UncleBeer]

Another ironic point I’d like to make is that many of you people seem to think the perpetrator had nearly unlimited abilities and resources to kill. You’re posing the possiblity of many dead persons here as the basis for a preemptive act by the cops. Yet, when the cops do return fire you excuse the vast quantity bullets fired by essentially saying that their capacity for killing is limited because of inadequate markmanship. I’m afraid you can’t have it both ways and would suggest that each and every one of the cops had far more firearm training and practice than the dead guy. But no, Pena’s got a little nine millimeter handgun (the accurate range of which is less than about seventy feet), and with hit he can kill dozens. The cops, on the other hand, with their vast arsenal and dozens of men, need all this not just as insurance, but actually have to use it wantonly take down a single guy.

[Shayna]

@UncleBeer

Elegance? Sounds more like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. But what do I know; I’m just a fucking idiot who thinks the cops acted irresponsibly by by directing at least dozens of deadly projectiles towards a guy holding a baby as a shield in not one, but three separate exchanges.

Yes, yes, you are a fucking idiot. You can’t even get the BASIC facts straight. Fuckwad only made the police aware of the presence of his toddler daughter AFTER the first exchange, when he went back inside the dealership and came out with her as a shield, AT WHICH TIME THE POLICE RETREATED. Backed off. STOPPED SHOOTING. That means the first exchange wasn’t directed “towards a guy holding a baby as a shield.”

The 2nd time they RETURNED fire was in the process of RESCUING A HOSTAGE. And nobody knows whether they were shooting at him at all, let alone whether or not he was holding his baby as a shield at the time, least of all, YOU.

So at a minimum, that makes your bolded “three separate exchanges” complete bullshit. And then you have the apparent audacity to place a higher value on the life of a toddler over that of a teenage girl. Because Fuckwad might have been holding a baby, they shouldn’t have returned fire in the course of rescuing the teenager, jeopardizing her life and theirs? You are such a fucking ass.

Other fucking idiots among us think this is a fine idea and that it’s okay to send a hail of bullets towards the perpetrator and his infant hostage just because the guy was shooting at them.

Absolutely nobody in this entire thread has said or implied anything remotely of the sort. Now you’re being a liar, in addition to being stupid.

Thic class of fucking idiots seem wholly unable to consider that the cops just might have had other options available to them.

Wholly unable? To even consider? What fucking thread are you reading? Not only has no one said that, but in fact, I for one have said precisely the opposite, fully acknowledging that there may have been other options, but that I DON’T KNOW because – wait for it – I WASN’T THERE.

But hey, the cops killed the perp, so all’s well that ends well. Never mind the innocent little toddler - fuck her - cops got their man, ergo, must have done the right thing and there couldn’t have been any other options.

That is perhaps the most offensive crap you’ve spewed out of your ass so far. I won’t even dignify it with further comment. You make me ill.

Are all these other people protesting the cops “haste” stupid fucking idiots, too?

Quite possibly so. Were they there? Were their lives at risk? Do they have any first-hand knowledge what the fuck they’re talking about?

And hey, here’s a statemnent form the dead guy’s brother who was there:

Yeah, there’s no way he’s a lying sack of shit, or, more generously, a grieving brother who wants to find blame anywhere but his own brother. No one ever denies responsibility or points fingers in the wrong direction. We should just automatically take his word over the word of others (perhaps the police, perhaps other witnesses) who have stated that Fuckwad talked to family and neighbors on the phone during the standoff. Yes, that’s the idea, let’s just try this thing out in the streets and take the screaming mob’s word. Forget any investigation, forget discovery, let’s just believe people WHO WEREN’T EVEN THERE!

The L.A. Times also notes that the Sherrif’s board of inquiry is curious to know why the negotiations were cut off.

Well good for them. I’m curious, too. So far, what we’ve been told is that the SWAT guys thought they’d wounded Fuckwad when they took a shot at him through a doorway. If direct testimony and/or physical evidence supports some other reason, I’ll gladly hear, and possibly believe, whatever is shown. Until then, I’m not ASSUMING that the police just didn’t give a fuck about a baby!

C’mon. The site of the shootout was a fucking used car dealership. The pictures at the L.A. Times show lots of open space around and on the lot. As does the drawing. The building is surrounded on three sides by an open street, an alley and the car lot. The other side appears to be in close proximity to an apartment building, but a peek at a streetmap reveals an alley between them, too. Open space on all four sides of the building. Plenty of room to manuever an armored car. And you can see a picture of the BearCat here. Surely that thing is capable of pushing automobiles out of its path.

And yet, you still have no idea if it actually WAS possible AT THAT TIME. Based on what’s been reported, they seem to have learned the teenager was even in there, only when she came running out. How in the hell could they have anticipated where to place an armored vehicle if they don’t even know where, when, or if a hostage is going to exit the premises? Should they be fucking clairvoyants now, too? These events unfolded in real time, and sometimes <gasp> you don’t get to plan ahead. What a concept!

There’s a lot of people here giving me shit for suggesting that the cops had other less deadly options

Bullshit. You’re getting shit for suggesting the cops shouldn’t have exercised the options they did, assuming they didn’t even consider other options, and accusing them of a callous disregard of human life without any evidence whatsoever to support any of those claims or assertions.

and that I would dare to suggest such without actually having been there.

Exactly. You have no idea what the fuck you’re talking about, so why don’t you take your own advice and “don’t be an asshole?”

[jimpatro]

But ya see, cops are evil, they’re instruments in controlling the populace. It’s the politicians man! :rolleyes:

Somebody needs to throw away their Anarchist Cookbook and explore Julia Child.

[UncleBeer]

Fuckwad only made the police aware of the presence of his toddler daughter AFTER the first exchange, when he went back inside the dealership and came out with her as a shield, AT WHICH TIME THE POLICE RETREATED. Backed off. STOPPED SHOOTING. That means the first exchange wasn’t directed “towards a guy holding a baby as a shield.”

This is in dispute. There are several accounts which state that Pena was holding the baby in all three exchanges.

The 2nd time they RETURNED fire was in the process of RESCUING A HOSTAGE. And nobody knows whether they were shooting at him at all, let alone whether or not he was holding his baby as a shield at the time, least of all, YOU.

A) If the cops weren’t shooting at Pena, then what the fuck were they shooting at? Pigeons?
B) I’m not certain the cops needed to be shooting at all. As I noted, they had an armored vehicle on the scene - something that is often used as a mobile shield. There’s no account which states that this option was ever considered, much less ruled out.
C) Again, there are accounts available on the Internet which state Pena hwas holding his daughter in each of the three exchanges.

So at a minimum, that makes your bolded “three separate exchanges” complete bullshit. And then you have the apparent audacity to place a higher value on the life of a toddler over that of a teenage girl. Because Fuckwad might have been holding a baby, they shouldn’t have returned fire in the course of rescuing the teenager, jeopardizing her life and theirs? You are such a fucking ass.

A) Nope. Even the cops have stated that the gun battle with Pena comprised three separate exchanges.
B) Nope again. I simply stated that I believe the cops might have had options available to them other than gunfire during the escape of teenager. The L.A. County Sheriff’s Board of Inquiry agrees and this is something they intend to make a focus of their investigation.
C) Yes, I am an ass. And you’re an overly shrill loudmouthed ignorant control freak bitch.

Absolutely nobody in this entire thread has said or implied anything remotely of the sort. Now you’re being a liar, in addition to being stupid.

Horseshit. There are several people in here condoning the cops directing a hail of gunfire towards the hostage who was by some accounts in the hands of Pena.

[quote]
That is perhaps the most offensive crap you’ve spewed out of your ass so far. I won’t even dignify it with further comment. You make me ill.
[/quote
Thank you. Happy to know my efforts aren’t unappreciated.

Yeah, there’s no way he’s a lying sack of shit, or, more generously, a grieving brother who wants to find blame anywhere but his own brother. No one ever denies responsibility or points fingers in the wrong direction. We should just automatically take his word over the word of others (perhaps the police, perhaps other witnesses) who have stated that Fuckwad talked to family and neighbors on the phone during the standoff. Yes, that’s the idea, let’s just try this thing out in the streets and take the screaming mob’s word. Forget any investigation, forget discovery, let’s just believe people WHO WEREN’T EVEN THERE!

As as your counterpoint to this, you’re willing to take the unsubstantiated words of the cops at face value.

so why don’t you take your own advice and “don’t be an asshole?”

Hey, everybody needs a hobby. Mine happens to be being an asshole.

Guess were done here. This thread actually was rather quiet and had some decent exchanges of opinion and fact until you ran in with your fat yap wide open and and screaming at us for daring to hold position different from your own.

The cops in all likelihood killed that little girl and did so when less violent options were available to them. That’s the absolute bottom fucking line here. And it’s a tragic case of overreaction by an overmilitarized domestic law force. Even tho’ I supposed don’t anything “because” I wasn’t there, I’ll wager 100 bucks right now that the report issued by the L.A. County Sheriff’s Board of Inquiry doesn’t differ substantively from this assessment.

[jimpatro]

UncleBeer

This is in dispute. There are several accounts which state that Pena was holding the baby in all three exchanges.

So how exactly are you supposed to squeeze an armored vehicle between them?
Don’t want to cause a rolleyes shortage so…aw what the hell!
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[silenus]

@jimpatro

UncleBeer

So how exactly are you supposed to squeeze an armored vehicle between them?

UncleBeer was refering to the teenager, not the child. There is a possibility that the armored vehicle could have been interposed between the teenager and the gunman. It also could have been so far away that ustilizing it would have been impossible in the time frame of the rescue.

Until the investigation is complete, all we are doing is talking out of our asses. None of us were there, and none of us believe that the police wantonly killed a little girl. Arm-chair quarterbacks are always full of shit, no matter what they say. And I include my pronouncements in that as well.

It will all come out in the wash. Let the investigation find out what happened.

[UncleBeer]

Until the investigation is complete, all we are doing is talking out of our asses.

I disagree. I think we’re perfectly able form an opinion from the known facts. And perfectly justified in doing so.

[silenus]

@UncleBeer

I disagree. I think we’re perfectly able form an opinion from the known facts. And perfectly justified in doing so.

That…is horseshit. We don’t know all of the facts. Any opinion formed without complete knowledge, which claims to be in any way remotely correct or proper is worthless.

[UncleBeer]

C’mon. That’s not true. One almost never knows all facts germane to any given situation. Surely we can take a subset of all facts, apply inductive reasoning and arrive at a functional hypothesis and/or useful approximation of the truth. To maintain otherwise eliminates the entire branch of logic known as induction.

[GusNSpot]

Well, if I can’t have the perp shooting innocents a block away, I think that the STANDARD response in these situations should be the placing of 3-4 snipers around and then the first time the perp with a gun , with or without the hostage, shows himself, he should be shot down. least danger to one and all and best for the gene pool.

YMMV

[Shayna]

You don’t read very well, do you, Beer? For the final time, your stupid ass isn’t being called on the carpet because you “dare to hold position different from” mine. You’re having your ass handed to you because you are so cocksure that you have ALL the answers as to how wrong every move the officers made was, in spite of the fact that there are conflicting stories, that no one (especially you) has all the available information and you weren’t even there, so many of your contentions are just fucking stupid. You pretend to know what options the officers on the scene even considered, or ruled out, stating what they should have done or could have done, when you haven’t a bloody fucking clue. Worse yet, you ascribe a level of callousness to these officers, as if you had any way of getting into their hearts or minds.

Yet amidst all your holier-than-thou-woulda-shoulda-coulda bullshit, you even contradict yourself. On the one hand, trying to take the guy out with sniper fire would be ill-advised because “it takes time to get a sniper team in place. And they’re still gonna have to wait for an advantageous moment to take a shot. In the meantime, the hostage-taker may see this as a provocation and take more extreme actions,” while at the same time claiming they should’ve gotten a giant armored vehicle in position (in what position, where, you don’t say) in case his teenage hostage tries to escape, or maybe even right in the middle of her attempt to escape, I can’t figure it out, with no regard to whether there would’ve been “time to get [an armored vehicle] in place,” whether or not there was “an advantageous moment,” or whether the “hostage-taker may see this as a provocation and take more extreme actions.”

But no, you’ve got all the answers. The child’s life wasn’t worth more than 80 minutes to these guys – they’re just an overmilitarized domestic law force (who, by the way, hasn’t shot a single hostage in 25 years) with a careless disregard for patience and life.

Not a single person here thinks it’s “a fine idea” or “okay” to “send a hail of bullets towards… an infant hostage.” Not a single fucking person here is unable to consider that there may have been other options, or has a heart cold enough to say “never mind the innocent little toddler – fuck her.” That you sink to this disgusting level of discourse to attribute such things to people who challenge your bullshit, shows you for the nasty, disingenuous fuck that you are.

I’d take your bet, but just the thought of touching anything that’s crossed your hands makes me feel dirty.