I understand that you are a psychologist? I’m thinking (again) of pursuing this as a career, and was wondering what your track was. Did you study psych in undergrad? Did you go straight into in after college?
I’m 37 and needing to make a change and do something that holds some meaning for me. Am I crazy at this age to pursue a PhD?
I’m not Shoshanna, but I can help a little while you’re waiting.
You need to figure out exactly what you want to do. If you envision yourself at a community mental health center seeing patients for Whatever Ails Them, then you’d be educating yourself out of a job with a Ph.D. You can work just about anywhere with a Masters and a license (obtainable either through your state, in which case you’re an LPC, or through a national organization, in which case you’re an NCC).
Next you need to figure out what course is right for you. Are you more clinical? Touchy-feely? I have a MA in Psychology, which has been utterly useless and hampered me significantly on the licensure exam. I went on for the Ed.S. in Guidance and Counseling just to get the “street creds.” If you have to hug your bunnies, there’s a relatively new degree, a Psy.D., that’s more clinical than your regular psych degree.
Mr. Kitty went to graduate school at 37 for his Masters (M.Ed., Guidance and Counseling), and went on for his Ed.S. in Guidance and Counseling- a total of 3 years, IIRC. No problems there at all… I don’t think you’d be crazy to pursue a Ph.D.
You don’t need to have an undergrad degree in a psych-related field, but it helps.
Can you tell me more about what you do, bobkitty? What’s a typical day like for you? I’m assuming you work with kids?
I do indeed work with kids. I run the equine therapy program at a residential facility, which means that I wear multiple hats when it comes to any given day.
First and foremost I’m in charge of the horses, plus any maintenance that needs to be done in “my” area. Any health problems are my responsibility, and if that means that one day I find myself shoulder deep up a horse’s ass, then that explains why I carry at least once change of clothes at all times.
Clinically, I run therapy groups (six weeks per group), run instructional/therapeutic groups (the kids are divided by living quarters, and each group goes down once a week), and other duties as assigned.
As part of the recreation department, I work directly with the vocational program (kids over the age of 14 can get an on-campus “job” and the barn is one area they work in- I have to supervise and write clincial notes) and educational program (I currently supervise one tutoring session each week). I also monitor recreation activities as my time allows- if I don’t have a group during a scheduled activity, I’ll go out and be an extra set of eyes (we always need more staff).
I’m responsible for weekly clinical notes on each resident (I could attend clinical meetings if I were so inclined, but really I have so much to do and so little time that I don’t) and recreational intake assessments as new kids come in.
I am required by both the facility and my licensing board to obtain a certain amount of training hours per year. For my facility, that includes our crisis intervention training, CPR/First Aid, and other related trainings.
The regular therapists here have case loads of about 8-10 kids each; they are responsible for meeting with each child individually for an hour a week, maintaining detailed clinical notes, writing and implementing any treatment plans, facilitate family therapy, arrange for visits, and arrange for discharge placement. We have recently started social skill/independent living groups, and each therapist is assigned a group to facilitate, so that’s once a week for an hour or so. As far as I can tell, I have more education than all but one of the regular therapists, and although my license is currently provisional, there are only two who have full licenses- the others only have MA degrees.
Happy to be of service.
I have a bachelor’s degree and a masters degree in unrelated subjects. When I decided that it was time to become a therapist, I went for a two-year terminal masters in Counseling Psychology (for my purposes, a clinically-oriented MSW also would have been fine). This was a practice-focused program with two year-long practica. I completed one at a psychiatric hospital and one in a college counseling center. I also worked during my degree in the groups part of a hospital program. If my state had had masters level licensure at that time, I would have pursued it. However, it did not.
I got a job as a crisis interventionist for a college, which I held for the next 5 1/2 years. After two years post-masters, however, I realized that the work I wanted to do (college counseling) would require a doctorate. In addition, I also was getting tired of having no decision-making or supervisory power.
I looked at doctoral programs in Clinical Psychology but they seemed to be about research, not service provision. There weren’t any Counseling Psychology doctoral programs in my area. I then found out about PsyD programs, which are applied doctorates in psychology. The assumption in a PsyD program is that you are going to be engaged in direct service provision. PsyD programs still can meet the APA’s requirements and state licensing requirements.
So that’s what I did. I had practica in a university counseling center and a community mental health center. My internship was at a university counseling center, and after finishing the degree, my major postdoc was at a community college counseling center.
As it happens, I teach full time in a non-tenure-line position, and do more supervision than therapy. I also am licensed and have a part-time private practice.
What else would you like to know?
I think it’s important to point out here that it required a doctorate in your state. Here it wouldn’t- as long as you’re licensed, you’re golden- the only person in the counseling center who has a doctorate at the college I attended is the department head, and no one in the center where I worked at the local 2-year college has a doctorate (as an EdS, in fact, I held the highest degree of anyone in the department).
I’m curious, Shoshana, why you didn’t pursue licensure through the NBCC at the Masters level? Did your program not meet their requirements?
Coupla’ things.
Tell me more about “When I decided that it was time to become a therapist”. How old were you? What made you decide? Did you think you’d be good at it?
Most PsyD programs I seem to find are at professional schools, which I have been warned away from. Did you go to a professional school?
I have thought about an MSW, but to be honest, I assume a PhD or PsyD makes more. (It’s lookin’ like it’s only gonna be me making that eventual mortgage payment… ). But on the other hand, my fear is that I will invest tens of thousands in a PhD only to have to be poor for many years afterwards due to student loans. By that time I’ll be 60! (Only mild hyperbole… )
Did you counsel between your postdoc and your teaching position?
Sometimes I think I’d like to work with kids, sometimes I’d like to work with adults. I’m not sure which way to go, and don’t seem to see programs that are targeted toward child psychology? But I’m thinking I’m going to volunteer at an organzation here for kids to see if it’s something I’m passionate about.
Thank you for your time and your responses.
I just can’t keep my mouth shut… sorry about constantly barging in here.
I’m not kidding when I say you have to be very, very careful about educating yourself out of jobs. It was something I ran into every now and then at the MA level, and I definitely see it now. Folks assume that if you have the degree, you want the bucks to go with it (duh!). Don’t get taken in by the letters- figure out what will get you what you need.
That said, there are (in this area, at least, and I hear complaints from peers from other states as well) more opportunites for a MSW, or better, an LCSW, in the clinical psych field than there are for psych folks, and BOY is that something that grates on people. Hospitals are more likely to hire SWs, hospices definitely want SWs, and the way things are swinging politically the community mental health centers employ more SWs than counselors. Only MDs and LCSWs can sign invountary committment forms, and that makes LCSWs in high demand in psych settings.
As someone who works with kids, I can say this with a great degree of certainty: don’t do it if you think you’ll feel a great deal of empathy for your clients. There is a huge burnout rate, and most of it comes from people being utterly incapable of leaving work at work. You can’t save them all, you can’t solve their problems with a hug, and you can’t beat the crap out of their custodians. I watch people come in (not only as therapists, but as direct-care staff) with these totally idealized notions of how everything will be Just Fine once they “get through” to the kids, and the kids eat them for breakfast. You can be caring and compassionate without sinking your whole being into them- if you don’t think this would work for you, then stay far, far away.
Hey, keep barging in! All points of view are welcome and needed.
And I appreciate your viewpoints very much. I struggle with whether I should do something that allows me to use my creativity and intelligence and intuition like counseling or just suck it up and become a systems analyst and volunteer to get my creativity/intelligence/intuition ya-yas out.
To be more clear, this was a functional “need.” I sent out several hundred applications across New England and heard back from at least 20 that they were looking for people with doctorates. It wasn’t a state requirement, but a de facto requirement.
I’m not sure that NBCC existed at the time. If it had, the license still wouldn’t have applied in the states within driving distance because the states only recognized the MSW as a license at the masters level.
Tell me more about “When I decided that it was time to become a therapist”. How old were you? What made you decide? Did you think you’d be good at it?
As you may know from some other threads, sometimes when I toggle (in this case, to see if NBCC existed when I did my masters), my reply gets posted. Apologies.
There was no information about NBCC or CACREP at my school or places of employment. It just wasn’t talked about as an option.
I had always thought I’d like to be a therapist (since I was 12 and read Sybil) but my college psychology classes didn’t seem like they led there. After teaching English for a few years, it was very clear to me that although I enjoyed it well enough, it wasn’t my passion. It took me about a year to find a masters program that looked good to me (i.e., applied and not full of research). I didn’t know for sure that I’d be good at it, which is one of the reasons why I went for a masters program first. In fact, given how good my test scores were, the masters program asked why I wasn’t applying directly for a doctorate, and I said that I didn’t think I was ready to make that commitment. I’m glad I got the masters first, because when I went for the doctorate I felt ready.
What have the warnings been? I went to a professional school nominally associated with a university. I paid out of pocket and will be paying for quite some time, but I got a stellar education and I was interested in it (as compared to the PhD programs I investigated).
Yes, in terms of insurance reimbursement. In my region, the pay differential at an agency is more nominal. Getting and then paying off a masters is a way to be in the field and still leaves your options open.
I was counseling in the postdoc, plus I had a private practice (though mostly doing disability evaluations under supervision). I worked in practice and in a couple of agency settings between finishing my postdoc and license and getting the teaching gig.
**Sometimes I think I’d like to work with kids, sometimes I’d like to work with adults. I’m not sure which way to go, and don’t seem to see programs that are targeted toward child psychology? But I’m thinking I’m going to volunteer at an organzation here for kids to see if it’s something I’m passionate about. **I think there are some. Look at Counseling Psychology programs rather than clinical.
Volunteering is a great way to see how good a fit the field is for you, and to see your range of possibilities.
Yeah, the person with NBCC certificate #2 was certified in 1983, and I don’t think NBCC certification was widespread in my area by the late 80’s when I was getting my masters.