That’s weird. What about outdoor settings with no roof?
Some people will go to a book club and are not interested in being hit on. Some subset of that group will be offended if it happens. Would you think that it is inappropriate to hit on people at a book club then (assume first attempt)?
I don’t understand it myself, but things like grinder and tinder exist - some people are into that. What outlet for that existed before smartphones?
As you noted above, we’re saying the same thing, and I’m not sure why my saying it in italics bothered you.
Namely, if two strangers encounter each other, i.e., are in a situation where they’ll notice each other’s presence (which is what I think you mean by the “walking in opposite directions” bit), then yes, as I’ve been saying all along, there’s nothing wrong with a brief casual greeting.
But if somebody isn’t noticing you and has no reason to notice you, it’s rude to try to make them notice you, even in a very fleeting way.
This doesn’t count in your favor.
What choice? To dress in normal clothes and walk down the street while female? Why should that have any negative consequences?
Seriously, citing Camille Paglia is not going to help you here.
Bullshit. How is walking down the street in normal clothing “showcasing your body”?
<snipping more weirdness from Paglia>
Men (and society at large) has changed significantly in recent decades and centuries. Some things that were acceptable 30 years ago no longer are, and men (and women) have survived and adapted.
Complete bullshit – this stuff has changed drastically in history, and there’s no reason to believe it won’t continue to change.
How about “I should be able to wear normal clothing and walk down the street and not be treated disrespectfully”?
How the fuck can you possibly associate wearing normal clothes with “showcasing one’s body”?
So because she wasn’t fucking sexually assaulted, that means she was treated fine? Sorry, but the bar should be a bit higher.
And your focus on her clothing as a showcase is completely ridiculous. If she was showcasing, then that means it’s nearly impossible for a woman to not “showcase her body” without wearing a fucking burqa.
I agree with you there. It was when the slippery slope led us to “someone to whom ‘hello’ is said many times a day has a right to feel harassed by that simple greeting over time” that I took issue.
The italics just seemed… unnecessary and condescending, especially when I was trying to support your original statement.
I’m glad the misogyny brigade is in full force for another round. I’m so glad I don’t live anywhere near people who don’t understand not to do something that others don’t like. Who knew so many Dopers failed kindergarten? Off to put a couple of dipshit lying trolls on ignore.
Let’s say there is a controversy about whether it is offensive to call a minority group by a particular name, such as Jap, redskin, Oriental, etc. On one hand, there is a member of the affected community who states that they take offense if they were called by that name. On the other hand, there is a person who is not a member of that community who believes that the term is not offensive and that it is unreasonable for the first person to take offense.
How do you, Bricker, resolve the matter of whether you should use the term in question? Personally, I give significant deference to the views of the first person, because they are the ones who have a stake in the matter. Their claim of offense would have to be quite unreasonable for me not to take their views seriously.
In this case, you are putting yourself in the role of the unaffected person claiming that the first person is unreasonable to take offense. Are you really that confident that many women are being unreasonable when they believe they are treated like sexual objects when they walk down a city street minding their own business?
I would say that, in NYC, the people who try to randomly the attention of women walking down the street (by catcalls, “Hey there”, or honking their horns) are assholes. I don’t have any friends who do that (although I do have friends who are assholes in other ways, to be sure) and I would be really taken aback if someone I knew interacted with a strange woman that way.
I’m sure it’s different elsewhere.
If you want to be associated with those assholes, be my guest. My impression of you from this MB is that you’re generally polite, generally civil. I would be really taken aback if, were we to meet in person and were walking down the street in NYC together, you would engage in random comments to female strangers on the street.
I think you’re really missing the context of how people behave on the streets of NY.
Absent context, I couldn’t say. As a general statement? Not necessarily, no.
I’m really stunned by the number of people insisting she was somehow showing off her body. I could maybe somewhat understand if she was dressed like she was going to a Nicki Minaj concert or for a night out clubbing, but plenty of the women my work regularly come in dressed like that.
Honestly, I’m pretty sure that the men who behaved that way would have been just as obnoxious(and no they weren’t all equally obnoxious) would have done so regardless of how she was dressed.
But in this matter, you also have the situation of OTHER members of the community who don’t agree with the member of the community who is taking offense.
So it;s not simply a question of giving deference to the member of the community as opposed to an observer; it’s that the community itself does not speak with a unified voice on the issue.
This is a poor question, because it conflates into one thing many behaviors which I agree are unconscionable.
You didn’t ask about the particular behavior at issue here: you asked, “…believe they are treated like sexual objects when they walk down a city street minding their own business?” So the real answer is: I agree with them, if the “treatment” is hearing “Hey baby,” “You look fine, mama,” or “What’s the matter? Stuck up? Won’t talk?”
But I don’t agree with them if the behavior in question is a polite nod in passing, accompanied with a “Morning!” or “Hello.”
Sorry, I guess the maxim-coining etiquetteers of the past were not sufficiently conscious of the depths of plodding literalism to which their future public might sink.
The “roof” in the context of “the roof constitutes the introduction” is just a metaphor for “social setting” in general: i.e., the fact of shared participation in an event designed for social interaction.
Rest assured that the maxim remains just as valid at an outdoor wedding or community beach cleanup day as it does at a book club meeting or wine and cheese social under an actual physical roof. (Note, however, that it does not necessarily apply to concerts, either outdoor or indoor, or other such events where the chief goal is for individual ticket-purchasers to enjoy the entertainment provided by performers rather than to interact with one another.)
I’ve already shared that I have visited NYC as a tourist many times, and I do nod and say hello to passersby of both genders.
I’m reminded of a line from one of the chorus members in “Rent,” during the “Life Support,” scene:
I am too. To say that this woman was dressed provocatively is laughable. If anything, she DOWNPLAYED her looks in that video.
What about in the bar area at Chili’s during happy hour? (need answer fast)
When the woman (as stipulated per hypothesis) is not paying attention to the people around her, not making eye contact, just walking through, etc, then to nod at her and say “hello” is to insist on an interaction she has not consented to.
You may hesitate at “insist,” but you shouldn’t. By not making eye contact, walking through without showing attention to people (except, of course, in the sense that one attends to the physical location of others to avoid colliding) and so on, she has communicated “I am not here to interact.” By saying hello, you’re initiating an interaction with someone who has already communicated that they are not there to interact. This is insistence, by definition.
To be the recipient of such insistence is justifiably off-putting.
Honestly, I’d consider that rude too, in some situations. If my body language said “Leave me the fuck alone, it’s early” as I imagine it does most mornings, I’d be annoyed by your greeting. The purpose of my body language is to avoid that; I’d feel as though you were deliberately choosing to ignore my own feelings in the matter.
I think you might have missed the point of the example. The question at issue isn’t who speaks for the community. The question is which of the two individuals it’s appropriate to show more deference to. The one who doesn’t care about the epithet presumably could take it or leave it. The one who does meanwhile, feels hurt when it is used. On balance, then, we should not use the epithet. Sure it’s kind of a utilitarian argument but this seems like a case where that kind of reasoning is definitely appropriate.
“Dear nice guys who just want to say hi: the assholes ruined it for you. Police your asshole friends and then maybe we can talk in five years.” - Daily Show correspondent Jessica Williams on Twitter
Question for female Dopers in cities: Do you also get dozens of greetings or catcalls per 10 hours of walking outdoors?
If no, why do certain people? Is this statistically typical?
People like the OP. And people like you, who act with faux outrage that there doesn’t seem to be anyone who has issues with what the actress and the activist group did