Should America Celebrate Columbus Day?

[Bricker]

@Revenant_Threshold

It seems unreasonable to qualify that particular section of the letter as you having “Columbus’ own words of denial:” in that case. Nor could you reasonably claim Columbus was opposed to the rape of children based upon it.

It’s annoying to not have the cite available for easy linking, but that isn’t a reason to quote a part that’s unspecific and then attribute what’s knowable from the complete contents to that part in and of itself.

Columbus is discussing Commander Bobadilla, who proclaimed himself Governor:

He incensed [the settlers] against me by saying that I wanted to deprive them of what their Highnesses had given them; and he endeavoured to set them at variance with me, and did so; and he induced them to write to their Highnesses that they should never again send me back to the government, and I likewise make the same supplication to them for myself and for my whole family, as long as there are not different inhabitants. And he together with them ordered inquisitions concerning me for wickednesses the like whereof were never known in hell. Our Lord, who rescued Daniel and the three children, is present with the same wisdom and power as He had then, and with the same means, if it should please Him and be in accordance with His will.

I should know how to remedy all this, and the rest of what has been said and has taken place since I have been in the Indies, if my disposition would allow me to seek my own advantage, and if it seemed honourable to me to do so, but the maintenance of justice and the extension of the dominion of her Highness has hitherto kept me down.

Now that so much gold is found, a dispute arises as to which brings more profit, whether to go about robbing or to go to the mines. A hundred castellanos are as easily obtained for a woman as for a farm, and it is very general, and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls: those from nine to ten are now in demand and for all ages a good price must be paid.

I assert that the violence of the calumny of turbulent persons has injured me more than my services have profited me; which is a bad example for the present and for the future. I take my oath that a number of men have gone to the Indies who did not deserve water in the sight of God and of the world; and now they are returning thither, and leave is granted them.

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If their Highnesses were to make a general inquisition there I assure you that they would look upon it as a great wonder that the island does not founder.

Columbus is not writing with approval of the practice. He is writing to describe the horrid state of affairs that has ensued since Bobadilla took charge of things, and defending himself against the implication that these things can be laid at his feet.

[GIGObuster]

@DerekMichaels00

or you just can’t accept that there are people out there with well thought out views who aren’t “progressive” by Obama-era standards.

:rolleyes:

There is nothing “progressive” with tossing imperial conquerors into the dustbin, it is actually a very very traditional thing to do.

When the US gained independence they did changed quickly many places that had British loyalty names. Like how King George’s tavern was changed to “General Washington” in Rip Van Winkle.

The statues of king George did not fare better.

http://www.teachushistory.org/american-revolution/resources/pulling-down-statue-george-iii

On July 9, 1776, the Declaration of Independence was read for the first time in New York in front of George Washington and his troops. In reaction to what had been read, soldiers and citizens went to Bowling Green, a park in Manhattan, where a lead statue of King George III on horseback stood. The mob of people pulled down the statue, and later the lead was melted down to make musket balls, or bullets for use in the war for independence. (3) Careful records were kept, and it is known that 42, 088 bullets were made. (4)

This engraving, and the painting that it is based upon, show a very romanticized version of the event. According to the eye witness accounts, the mob included soldiers, sailors, blacks, and a few lower class citizens, not the women, children, and Native Americans pictured here. Also, the artist portrays King George’s statue incorrectly. The statue in the image is wearing eighteenth century clothing and a crown. (5) No image exists of the actual statue, but descriptions of it mention that it was sculpted wearing a Roman toga. All that is left of the statue are a few fragments that broke off when it fell to the ground. The statue only stood erect in Bowling Green for six years, as it was originally commissioned to celebrate the repeal of the Stamp Act in 1766. (6)

This incident was symbolic because it showed that Americans were ready to be independent and free from tyrannical rule, but also by pulling down a statue of the King, it was a symbolic gesture to make historic change from the rule of a monarchy to the rule of a democracy. (7)

The point here is that there is a long tradition on giving the finger to the emperors of the past. And I always will see the celebration of Columbus as a very retrograde and truly revisionist idea where we celebrated the colonial and imperial rule of the past (that came very close to be the empire that the US rebelled against) instead of celebrating our resistance.

[Ravenman]

@aldiboronti

If you’re proud of the USA (and I realize some aren’t) then you should celebrate Christopher Columbus.

I asked the OP and haven’t gotten an answer, but I’d like to ask you the same question: how do you celebrate him? Like, what do you have planned for Monday?

[DerekMichaels00]

@Ravenman

I asked the OP and haven’t gotten an answer, but I’d like to ask you the same question: how do you celebrate him? Like, what do you have planned for Monday?

standing up for his holiday against the backdrop of ultra-PCness is one way to honour him. Allowing myself to be thought of in negative terms by the left, such as “racist,” “imperialist,” etc. because of my views honors him. As well as unabashedly asking people I meet how their Columbus Day weekend was. The PCniks get as pissed off as saying Merry Christmas.

[Ravenman]

So, you celebrate Columbus by annoying people you don’t agree with. Ok. Anything else?

[Telemark]

@Ravenman

I asked the OP and haven’t gotten an answer, but I’d like to ask you the same question: how do you celebrate him? Like, what do you have planned for Monday?

I’m waiting for the Santa Maria to bring me my presents.

[GIGObuster]

@DerekMichaels00

standing up for his holiday against the backdrop of ultra-PCness is one way to honour him.

Rip Van Winkle almost got beaten up before it was explained that he had fallen sleep during the revolution.

Even so there was no reason to continue to honour the imperialists after learning the truth.

@DerekMichaels00

Allowing myself to be thought of in negative terms by the left, such as “racist,” “imperialist,” etc. because of my views honors him.

Thing is that the celebration of Columbus is in reality a modern mistake, it was not much of a thing until the 19th century.

@DerekMichaels00

As well as unabashedly asking people I meet how their Columbus Day weekend was. The PCniks get as pissed off as saying Merry Christmas.

Please, the American revolutionaries were not peaceniks nor PC. They would be appalled that we are celebrating an imperialist. IMHO the reality is that a lot of the sympathies going to Columbus in the 19th and early 20th centuries was that many Americans liked to have their empire going too in those days of “The Big Stick”.

[Ruken]

Holidays are dumb. But I’ll take the paid day off.

[DrDeth]

@iiandyiiii

Columbus gave the girl to his lieutenant to be a sex slave. The lieutenant said “the admiral gave her to me”.

Pretend, if you want, that that’s not evidence that Columbus gave native girls to his men to be sex slaves, but I won’t.

Not 10yo children, tho.

“He gave ten-year-old indigenous children to his men to be rape toys.” continues to be false or unproven.

No one is doubting rape from 13th century sailors. * Of course* they raped.

[Bryan_Ekers]

I agree with Derek; holidays should have a sturdy “FUCK YOU!!” ingrained in then.

[DrDeth]

@Procrustus

Oh boy, I had no idea. However, in my defense:

Sure, and if I hadnt recently looked it up, I woulnt have known, in fact I thought it was Presidents day myself.:smack:

[DrDeth]

@iiandyiiii

All that can be celebrated without celebrating someone who gave child rape slaves to his lieutenants.
.

You keep saying child rape slaves and you know that allegation is wrong or unproven.

[DrDeth]

@The_Other_Waldo_Pepper

I don’t want a federal holiday for either of them. Or a state holiday for either of them.

So, then, no person should be celebrated enough for a holiday? because, I guarantee you, 200 years from now we will *all *be considered crass violent barbarians.

[Miller]

@DrDeth

So, then, no person should be celebrated enough for a holiday? because, I guarantee you, 200 years from now we will *all *be considered crass violent barbarians.

And we’ll all be two centuries in our graves, so who gives a shit what they think about us?

[DrDeth]

@Miller

And we’ll all be two centuries in our graves, ,

Speak for yourself, Mortal.

[raventhief]

@DerekMichaels00

Muhammed married a 10 year old but people still celebrated Muhammed and the WH has celebrations in honor of a religion which owes its existence to Muhammed.

Look, maybe I should’ve phrased the question of the OP as “should we continue to celebrate Columbus Day?” But it exists already, its fait accompli, and given the good that did come out of Columbus, we should continue to celebrate it.

What does the White House celebrate to honor Muhummed?

[iiandyiiii]

@DrDeth

You keep saying child rape slaves and you know that allegation is wrong or unproven.

You keep harping on this minor point when I already admitted the age of the girl wasn’t specified as if it matters. Defend the rape-slave provider if you wish.

[nightshadea]

I may be wrong but didn’t Columbus day only become a federal holiday when FDR was looking for bank/government holidays in the 30s?

[Captain_Amazing]

@nightshadea

I may be wrong but didn’t Columbus day only become a federal holiday when FDR was looking for bank/government holidays in the 30s?

It had been a local holiday in cities with Italian populations for a while (the first Columbus Day celebration was in New York in 1792 to celebrate the 300th anniversary of the trip), but it became a federal holiday in 1934 due to lobbying by the (appropriately named) Knights of Columbus.

[Lord_Feldon]

@DerekMichaels00

in a few cities and like 8% of states, true, but in the rest, Americans celebrate Columbus Day. He’s a hero.

Do we really? I’m a white American near a city named for Christopher Columbus and I’ve never celebrated, or known others to celebrate. I guess the mail won’t come. Woo. Maybe there’s an event downtown at the Santa Maria or something? If there is I’ve never heard of it, let alone gone.