AMEN! (so to speak…) Suppose I had folks over and demanded that they do NOT pray in my house? “I’ll have none of that silly superstition in my home, thanks. We only talk to REAL people here, not imaginary.” How incredibly rude would that be?
And a big TESTIFY! goes out to slythe for pointing out it always the atheists who are expected to compromise.
What’s wrong with atheists compromising? Do you suggest digging into dinner while at a guests house and they say a prayer? If you do anything else (wait quitely for everyone else to finish for example) then you are compromising to some extent. Personally I don’t see it as compromising so much as extending a minor human courtesy to the wishes of others.
Spiritus Mundi:
If you notice the post you quoted and are responding to in the quote above said, “If you have strong feelings against saying grace or you think your hosts would be offended then skip it.”
I agree 100% that nobody should be obliged to participate in something that makes them uncomfortable. If anything I would think it would be more offensive to a religious person if an atheist said one of their prayers instead of opting out.
To be honest, I rarely know the prayer being said at dinners where the people around me are saying one. I really have no choice but to stand there and keep my trap shut. So far no one has taken offense to this but then again I doubt I’d be in that situation where those people would be upset since I generally steer clear of the hyper-religious anyway.
Point taken, Jeff, and I had not intended my comment to single out your post for criticism. I was addressing a singel idea which was represented in your post, and which I have run into elsewhere, that a host sets the rules and the burden for maintaining good will falls on the guests. This is a raical reinterpretation of the traditions of hospitality. It has long been teh burden of the host to create an atmposphere in which all of his guests feel comfortable, included and at ease. The etymological connection of host and hospitality are not accidental.
Actually, we have rotating hosts, some of which are thus offended by the guests saying grace.
If I am in the home of someone who says grace at mealtimes, I will bow my head or hold hands. I do not close my eyes, nor do I speak. As someone who worships a Goddess, I no longer feel comfortable directing my prayer to the god of Abraham. As others here have said, I too think it’s insulting to the host, and hypocritical of me. Same goes for attending functions that occur at churches, like weddings & christenings. I do try not to draw massive attention to the fact that I am not participating, though.
I’ve been lucky so far–no one’s ever asked me why I don’t speak/close my eyes/kneel. I don’t have a response prepared. I probably should get one, shouldn’t I?
Or, you could go with the sagacious words of Bart Simpson–“We paid for this stuff ourselves, so thanks for nothing.”
By the way, I think someone needs to send this question to Miss Manners.
Dr. J
I am absolutely appalled that anyone would make a big deal about insisting that all people, no matter what their beliefs, participate in grace. How rude, how…how…UnChristian! Yikes.
However, I do think that if a large portion of the group starts saying grace, the rest of the group can hold out long enough before they start eating. In other words, keep quiet and still until the prayer is over, then dig in. But no…no need to put on any act that you are participating in the grace. Just keep quiet and still.
If a smaller portion of the group wants to say grace, while the larger portion does not, the smaller portion can still do it. I mean, what are you going to do…arm wrestle them to make them stop? I have been known to bow my head in restaurants and silently say grace to myself, I have also been with my family as we quietly say grace to ourselves in a restaurant. I know a restaurant setting isn’t the same as being as someone’s home, but the point is, if I’m going to say grace, I’m going to do it. I may say it silently and unobtrusively, but if anyone around me decides that they feel uncomfortable, that’s the breaks.
I have seen several posters mention that if they are in the home of someone who says grace they will remain silent while grace is being said. Put how about the converse? I am anti-church and I would hate to have to make that consession in my own home even if it meant I was a poor host. What are the feelings of other posters on this matter? What if someone came into your home for dinner and they wanted to say grace?
Sure, like eating with the family isn’t already a bad situation without bringing this non-issue into it. Athiests, just say what you have to to eat. It’s polite and you shouldn’t be that offended at having to proclaim thanks to a God you don’t believe in. Kinda like being pissed off about someone telling you to talk to yourself…yeah??
lswote, I’d let them say grace if they wanted to. I have no objection to grace. I just don’t say it myself. However, in my home, I’m sure it would be obvious that I was not participating. For instance, I would probably not bow my head.
I think what Slythe meant (and definitely what I meant) is typified perfectly by Occam’s post. He states “you shouldn’t be that offended at having to proclaim thanks to a God you don’t believe in.” That’s the type of “compromise” that is usually expected of atheists, total disregard for their own personal beliefs.
I agree with you that real compromise should be what both parties offer, and simply waiting until grace is over to eat is more than reasonable, IMHO.
Would it be a non-issue to a Christian if he or she was forced to take part in a ceremony that ran totally against his or her beliefs? I doubt it.
I was being contentious on Slythe’s post. Thanks for putting it in a more mellow way.
I’m also with Revtim on his last post (just above). Even a ‘non-belief’ is a belief. To expect an atheist to say a prayer because it’s nothing more than meaningless to him/her is wrong. Why shouldn’t a Jew pray to the Virgin Mary since it’s obviously meaningless to their religion? Where’s the harm in that (sarcasm)?
Anyone at a guest’s house, who doesn’t share their host’s religion, should simply keep quiet and not expect disapproval from the host. There should be no problem for the host to say a prayer that’s meaningful to him/her and the host should have no reason to expect those of different theology/philosophy to participate if they do not wish to.
Seems to me like this is basic courtesy from both sides unless one of the two parties is a freak about their religion. In that case it’s probably best to leave…chances are it’d be a stupid fight anyway.
My most akward moment was attending a dance recital at a Tamil service Hindu temple.
I was unaware when talked into going that it would be part of a service.
At the end, as I was trying to slip out, the leader (forgotten the term, if I ever heard it) started a chant and selected me to be first to receive a bowl of floating flowers.
I froze, helpless. It took forever before he realized I was clueless, despite my being the only one not in Indian attire.
Someone withdrew the bowl, gently guided me into a seated position on the floor, wrapped me an elaborately embroidered gold cloak, and then everyone ignored me completely - not a glance in my direction.
After that, the puzzle of the unexpected grace has lost much of its power, but I still feel manipulated.
I think this has already been referred to, but if the dinners move from house to house, I think it should be up to the host. If the host wants to say grace, fine – everybody else can ignore them or do whatever. If the host does not want to say grace, those who want to should keep their yaps shut.
I have an example (not of grace at dinner, but you’ll see). I was married in a Jewish ceremony. My wife had worked for a couple years teaching English to Russian kids at a very Conservative/Orthodox Jewish day school. Two of the attendees were my wife’s boss and a co-worker. After the ceremony, when we came in to the reception, they grabbed my wife, gave her an umbrella thing, threw confetti (or something) on her, made her sit down, and did a little dance thing around her. I’ve never seen it before or since, but I guess it was some Orthodox thing. Virtually nobody else in the room (including both of our families) had any clue what they were doing.
Later, they kept asking the band to play traditional (read: old) Jewish songs so they could do traditional dances. Nobody else wanted the songs, including us. After a couple, I had my father go to the band and tell them to stop that song and not take any more suggestions from those two.
After that, during the horah (sp?), people were dancing and having fun, and these two had the nerve to start separating the men and women (as it would be at an Orthodox wedding) – including ME! I was too stunned to say anything the moment it happened, but within seconds I was ready to rip their heads off. Luckily, my father came by and stopped me. So we ignored them and danced as we wanted. But if they had said or done one more thing, I would have exploded.
The point to this long story is that they acted as if they were in charge of the wedding. But they were just two co-workers of my wife. If I had been invited to an Orthodox wedding, I sure as heck wouldn’t have gone around trying to get men and women to dance together! They were on our turf but acted like it was the other way around. I see this as similar to somebody coming to my house and asking to say grace.
what kind of food was it?
I believe the Tamil story is why you should ask what religious rituals are going to take place before they begin; what you will be expected to do; etc. That way you can participate or not in them. I would say, participate no more fully than you are allowed (don’t take the eucharist if you’re not Catholic) and no less fully than is acceptable for a non-believer (shut up during grace).
I decided to look up this type of situation in a little book called Fighting Back! A Manual for Freethinkers. Several different nonbelievers answer the question of what they think other nonbelievers should do about grace being suggested by the host. All tend to agree with what we’ve said here – if you’re at their house, just play along without interfering. One told of how he was asked if he would object to a prayer and he said, “My personal preference would be that no prayer be given. If some of you would like to pray, please do so but understand my wish not to participate.” He said that most of the time, the host just launches into grace without asking, and he simply sits quietly. When there was a case of people wanting to hold hands, he simply said he was sorry but he doesn’t pray, and kept his hands on the table. The third response suggested coming up with an inspirational but non-religious message to use if you are asked to lead grace. His suggestion was: “Friends, let us appreciate the world of nature without which neither the food we are about to consume nor the appetite to relish it would have evolved. Nor should we forget the human toil that has made our sustenance available, or those throughout the world who must go hungry still. May we ever strive to protect and preserve the environment to which we have become so marvelously adapted, to rid ourselves of dependence upon superstitious beliefs, and to broaden the circle of those we love to include all of humanity.”
Another section deals with a guest at your home who suggests saying grace. This one has two short answers. Both are “no” in different ways. The first says that people would have a hard time coming to his house and not knowing his beliefs, but if by some chance they ask to say grace, he says, “Well, we use reason here, so no praying out loud. If you’d like to say grace silently, I don’t suppose you are any less likely to be heard than if you prayed aloud.” He said nobody has ever started praying aloud without asking (or after getting his answer), but if they did, “that would be the end of their participation at my dinner party.” The second says essentially the same thing.
A question: Some of the above posters have discussed whether they “bow their heads” or not. Does bowing you head mean really lowering your head down (chin on chest), or just lowering your eyes?
With regards to the OP–those fundies in your group were prostelytizing. That is not okay at a social occasion. I have been at dinners with Christian fundies, and one of my best friends is a minister, and some pretty religious graces have been said, but no-one has ever demanded that I say anything!! People like those in your group give fundies and plain ol’ religious people a bad name!!
As far as the holding-hands thing: When some friends of mine have dinners, before the meal, everybody joins hands and is silent for a moment. They do not specifically tell people to join hands–they just take the hands of the people next to them and it happens naturally. I really like this. I just take the moment to feel grateful for the good food and fellowship. Maybe others pray. I dunno. It’s a nice way to start a meal, and I wonder how anyone could be offended by this sort of thing.