Should athiests, agnostics, and inactive believers participate in saying grace?

Great Debates
41

As a family of practicing atheists, we often face this situation in family gatherings. As a solution in our home, before every meal whther we have guests or only immediate family, we say “Thank you for this lovely meal.” That covers pretty much everything. You choose whether you are thanking the farmers who grew the food, whoever bought or prepared it, the animals or plants who gave their lives, this marvy existence that inclues things like tasty tidbits, any fictional beings you wish, or anyone/thing else. It felt awkward for us to say, “We don’t say grace, but I know some of want to, so go ahead if you wish.” Faced the situation often because both my family and my spouse’s profess to be Christian (whether they exhibit “Christian” values is another discussion). And a good share of family gatherings happen on what are their high holy days. They just don’t seem to want to accept Samhein!

I feel our “thanks” beats the heartfelt blessings I grew up with in a strongly RC household. How did it go? As I recall, we said in one breath and as quickly as possible: “Blessesegiftswe’rebouddareceivefrommabodynblooddaChrisamen.”
(Along the same lines, I always wondered how vaguely you could wave your hand in front of you and have it still count as an official sign of the cross.)

In someone else’s house I just remain silent. You picks your battles.

Peace be with you all. :slight_smile:

42

David, that’s not manners, that’s starting a religious debate at the dinner table. Frankly, I find the suggestions you quoted to be snotty.

43

This seems to me to be religious intolerance of the worst kind. If someone wants to pray, let them! I am an athiest, and it does not offend me that other people are not. What purpose would there be in not allowing friends to pray to a god they believe in in my presence, other than to put myself in a position of power and authority over their religious practices?

44

Green Bean: When I refer to bowing my head, I’m speaking of the chin-to-chest thing.

Dinsdale: I like your grace. That works well. It does cover pretty much everything!

45

Green Bean channelled Miss Manners as saying:

Unfortunately, it has been my experience that “non-denominational” is a code word for “Christian.”

I attended a Baccalaureate ceremony when I was about to graduate from UCLA. They swore it was going to be “non-denominational”, and yet they must have said “Christ” at least five times. It reminded me of that scene in The Blues Brothers, where Jake asks the waitress what kind of music they usually play in her bar, and she responds, “Oh, both kinds! Country and western!”

46

… Er, by which I mean, this “non-denominational” ceremony must have been geared to members of “all” religions – Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans, Calvinists, Presbyterians, and even Episcopalians! :rolleyes:

47

Miss Manners, via Green Bean, said:

I’m sorry, but I disagree. If it is a guest in your home, I don’t think it’s rude at all to politely say that you do not want any prayers out loud.

Matt – I agree that some were rather snotty. I didn’t say I agreed with these methods, they were just what they said. You should be able to tell from the title of the book that it was written by those who feel they have been on the wrong end of the stick for these sorts of things. They are “fighting back.”

Eonwe – I disagree. It isn’t religious intolerance at all. It’s simply the right to exercise one’s own views in one’s own house. Or do you think it would be ok for an atheist to go to a Christian’s house and say, at the beginning of the meal, “There is no God, so I thank the farmers and the cook”? I don’t. Could some of it come off rudely? Yes. But like the one guy said, it would be hard for people coming to his house to not know his stance on these things already. And all agreed that they would not do anything to disrupt a prayer at somebody else’s house.

48

You’re right, it wouldn’t. It would be getting into a religious debate for no reason. It would be ok, however, for the atheist to say just “I thank the farmers and the cook.”

When I’m asked to say a grace in a Christian context, I omit any reference to religion at all - theirs or mine - and focus on what we have in common. “I give thanks for this food and for the animals and vegetables and people who made it possible!”

49

Which is fine, if you’re in somebody else’s home. In one’s own home, though, I think a person would be absolutely correct to say they don’t say grace. How polite they want to be (as compared with being quite direct) is up to them and would depend on the situation, I’d say.

50

No, of course this would be rude, as much as it would be rude for a Christian to say, “My guest’s beliefs are wrong, and in fact I insult his beliefs, now lets get on with dinner.” Why is it somehow insulting as an athiest to allow a friend to practice his/her religion in your house? If a Muslim friend wanted to pray to Mecca in your home, would you not allow it? I’m not talking about someone comming into your home and forcing you to say Grace or to perform any sort of ritual, this is about giving guests the freedom to practice their beliefs.

51

Eonwe said:

There is a difference, IMO.

If a Muslim wanted to go use a separate room to pray, fine. But that’s not what we’re talking about here. We’re talking about somebody saying their prayer before my meal at my house.

52

Just to weigh in Here:

My father once gave me the best advice I ever heard: “Before you go charging up that hill you better decide if it’s worth dying for.”

My wife’s family is about half-loaded with some real fundamental, snake-handling, backwoods fundamentalists. I hold hands while they say grace when I’m on their turf.

I don’t object to grace being said when they’re at my house.

These guys HATE Catholics (we worship the Pope and Mary,) so even though I’m not religious, I always do the sign of the cross after they prayer. I just know it pisses them off.

Anyway, I’d gone along with their stuff so much and even went to their Church a couple of times out of politeness. I must have been pretty naive, because in retrospect it’s pretty clear that they were trying to convert me.

They were at my house one time. We set dinner, they got ready to say grace, and all of a sudden Grace turned into a let’s pray for Al’s soul kinda deal, turn him to the path of righteousness and bring him into the fold sort of thing. Thank you God for giving us this opportunity to “save” him.

This really ticked me off. I’m not religious until somebody attacks it. Irish Catholic is my heritage and culture, and I didn’t appreciate anybody taking liberties to change that, and especially not in my home.

So when they said “Amen,” I said “Lord, please forgive the ignorant and the presumptuous. They know not what they do. In The name of Father The Son and The Holy Ghost (doing the cross thing again”)

They haven’t been to our house again.

My wife said I should have just let it go, and just smiled at them instead.

That being said I have no problem with anybody who feels they need to say a prayer before a meal. They are welcome to do so in my house if they want. Part of my duty as a good host is to make my guests comfortable.
DavidB:

If a guest in your house asked politely if it was OK if THEY said a prayer before THEY ate, would you have an objection?

53

Scylla – of course, as you said, you have to choose your battles. You have to determine if it’s worth offending a guest at your home in order to make your point. I think that’s where I differed the most from the guys who I mentioned from the book – they were a bit more confrontational about it than I would likely be. If I have invited somebody into my home, it is likely that they know I am no Christian. It is also likely that they are friends and I am not likely to try to offend them or their religious beliefs, just as I hope they would not offend me or my lack thereof.

However, in a situation like the one described in the OP, I might indeed take a stand. I don’t need to be friends with people like that.

So, would I object to somebody saying grace in my home? Well, like I said, I don’t think any of my friends would ask. Indeed, I have very Christian friends (we’re talking young earth creationist here) who say grace at their table at every meal. They have been to dinner here many times. Not once have they even brought up the issue. If they did, I would probably be too stunned to say much of anything.

If somebody else came to dinner at our house (I can’t begin to imagine such a situation, which makes it difficult to answer) and asked, I would probably say no. I would be polite about it, but “no” would almost certainly be my answer.

54

David: Hm… you know, I never thought about this, but the whole time I am thinking, “geez, this guy would alienate his friends over something so petty,” but thinking about it, I don’t think any of my friends have ever asked to say grace at my house. I have had friends pray silently to themselves before eating, but never who asked (or didn’t ask) to say grace. Perhaps it is something that is uncalled for. I still don’t think I’d disallow it in my house, but thinking about it I agree with you that it is inappropriate to ask.

55

Exactly.

Another way to look at it: If they would do something this inappropriate, are they worth keeping as friends?

56

How would you apply this to relatives?

Here is my situation. My upbringing was Roman Catholic. My spouse’s was Lutheran. We tend to break bread with extended family at times such as Easter, Thanksgiving, and X-mas. The first and last are obviously of religious significance to them. We heathens have reasons to celebrate then as well. We rotate the location of holiday meals among the family households in the immediate area. Even though Christ plays no special part in my family’s celebration of X-mas, other than as a myth that explains and illustrates some things historically, sociologically, etc., I feel it would be selfish of me to desire that my extended family spend this time with me, yet refuse to allow them to acknowledge their beliefs. That is one reason why we came up with our nondenominational “blessing” – “Thank you for this lovely meal.”

We also believe that certain rituals have some value. Having our kids to pause briefly before chowing down, forces them to acknowledge that the food does not magically appear on the table, and that they should be thankful for their many advantages.

Final point, tho I may wonder why people irrationally believe in a certain God or gods, the fact remains that the overwhelming majority of people do. In recent years it seems as tho our circle of friends is becoming primarily populated by humanists and other liberal thinkers largely drawn from Unitarian Universalist congregations. But I am not yet ready to say that I wish to not associate with, or to go out of my way to unnecessarily alienate, the portion of the population who profess to be believers. I go out of my way to make my guests feel welcome in my home. If I invite them in, knowing that they will likely want to “say grace” before eating, well…

57

First of all, Scylla, great story. Not often that I laugh aloud at something that I read, and I did so.

As I said in an earlier post, to blithely assume that everyone will say grace with you is pretty damned rude. However, my mother-in-law sometimes eats in my home, and she usually says grace. My daughter is also reaching that point wherein she wants to say grace. Me? I just sit there quietly until they are finished, then dig in. My response is the same if I find myself in someone else’s home, and they feel the need to pray over a meal.

Eonwe:

Well, I don’t consider it an insult if a friend wants to pray in my home, and I realize that there’s not a whole hell of a lot I can do to stop someone from doing so. If I knew someone who was an observant Muslim, and they were at my home at the call to prayers, I would ask that they not roll out the carpet in my dining room, but instead make use of another room. However, there is a world of difference between these things, and having a portion of a group expect me to join hands and pray with them before a meal. In that case, I would explain that I am not comfortable praying, and my reasons for feeling that way. I would like to think that anyone I might spend time with would understand, and life would go on. Otherwise, I would find myself in DavidB’s shoes and ask whether it was worth it for me to spend time with those people.

Waste
Flick Lives!

58

Dinsdale asked:

Again, that would depend on the situation. If they are relatives you don’t want to offend, then you are polite (but I would still be firm about not allowing the grace – just as I don’t allow my grandmother to smoke in my house). If they are your in-laws and you don’t care about offending them, that’s another story. :wink:

59

My Granmother is (I shit thee not, 101.5 years old.)

I would challenge anybody to invite her to your house for a meal. I guarrantee she will have YOU saying grace (you just can’t argue with a women like that who thinks everybody is her son and still 12 years old.)

If you attempt to argue with her she will threaten to beat you and then tell you a story. The story will have no point whatsoever, encompass every event that Ever occured, but not in sequence. It will contain certain non-sequitors like “and that was when that Jewish fella, Eisenhower was President…”

After 5 minutes I promise you will be praying.

THere are no atheists in foxholes or at dinner with her.

60

Grace is also fun because at the end you can say “In the name of the Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost… He who eats the fastest gets the most. Amen”