What method of dissuading people from making false accusations is not also going to dissuade people from making true, but hard-to-prove, accusations?
Enough with the “hard to prove” bit. Yes rape cases are challenging, but heinous crimes like murder rape, grievous bodily harm all are difficult cases in their own way, as are technical cases like white collar crime and cases against the state, all of them are more complicated than prosecuting Johnny “75th offence” shoplifter at Bumfuck Magistrates Court, surprise, surprise. I have prosecuted sex crimes, defended accused and done a lot of victim advice, the cases are complicated and hard, but not near walking on the moon difficult as some of you would have it.
Yes, people who falsely and purposely accuse others of crimes which they know are unfounded need to be taken down, be it rape or jaywalking., but to zealously go after every false claim, without seeing the circumstances is ridiculous, you’d have to prosecute everyone who deposed for an unsuccessful litigant/complainant in every trial.
And, MrDibble could you please stop infantilizing rape victims, they have had a crime committed against them, they are not mental defectives that they are so delicate that they cannot be brought to complain or need to be coddled at all times.
Where, exactly, did I do that?
Yes, women are not infants. That’s why the vast majority of women who have been raped take a good look at the potential benefits and drawbacks of a rape trial and make the very rational decision not to go to trial. In most cases, it’s not worth it. And adding more incentives not to report or go to trial WILL be incorporated into that decision.
This isn’t a neutral thing that only has personal consequences. Every time a rapist doesn’t go to trial, they are free to rape again. Not only that, but it sends a message to other would-be rapists, including otherwise decent guys who may be tempted to cross a line, that it’s not a big deal. That there will be no consequence.
And this makes for more rape. We’ve seen, for example in South Africa, that when rapists can rape with impunity, they do. Prosecution against rape is the difference between a culture where 40% of women can expect to get raped, and one where rape is not a part of daily life.
It’s nice that you see some justice on the small slice of rapists who face trial. But you are seeing the tiniest tip of the iceberg-- and often the clearest, easiest cases. Most people are already not getting justice, and adding another disincentive will up that number.
Otherwise “decent” guys? Ar you actually serious or am I being wooshed?
Frankly, enough with the patronising bullshit. You have this idealised rape victim in your mind; Snow White or the plucky modern college girl or the poor opressed flower. Unfortunately most actual rape victims are not like that; and the ones that are, usually don’t need much help in getting justice because people are willing to call in the fucking Army and Navy to assist. Ever wonder why Campus rapes get such traction, even though rapes risk on campuses aremuch less than in outside world?
In real life, victims of crime are not usually as photogenic and clean as the ones who grace magazine articles. Many victims of crime(and most crime not just rapes) are not particularly pleasant people or people you would wish to spend much if any time with. Most of them are not sympathetic and many of them are criminals themselves and often dangerous criminals. They still deserve justice, but unlike our other symphatetic victims, they get indifferent investigators and overworked prosecutors w.
If you work with rape and sexual violence victims you see few who look like models (as some of the most well-known complainants have been). You will instead see a long line of crack whores, double taps (people who are both abusers and abused), losers in a lovers tiff, prostitutes, in short the marginalised of society. Yes some (quite a few actually) don’t fit that, there are victims of all stripes.
However for most victims its not a “Rape culture” which led them to where they were. The culture of impunity that they face is not as a result of “low conviction rates” which somehow get otherwise “decent” guys to think rape is ok. It’s because of the circumstances that they are in where impunity is a fact, when society is not willing to put as much resources to protect them as it would with “decent” folks. This is true whether you are talking about rape or other violent crimes (whose murder gets more effort, a tramp’s or a banker’s?).
So, unless you find ways to change the circumstances these people are in, you are not going to have much success in combatting rape even if you get the conviction rate to 100%, because most rapists are not going to be deterred by risk of punishment. The crimes, whether murder, or rape or violent assault or drugs did not occur in a vaccum.
So, maybe what I am saying is. Justice 4 crackwhores. Yeah, I doubt that this would get much traction as a slogan.
Go on, please do tell me more about what a rape victim is like…
:rolleyes:
They can be from all demographics, but the majority are from circumstances which place them at the edge of society and they are thus highly vulnerable, and they often don’t get sufficient sympathy from the LEA, Prosecutors and the media.
You don’t say … facinating. Such insight. Well, I’d never have guessed rape victims weren’t all plucky modern college girls or Snow Whites if you’d never told me. :rolleyes:
Oh yeah I do, and so do most people. But everyone seems to be inordinately obsessed with conviction and reporting rates and “teaching people not to rape”. For instance, one of the most vulnerable groups is the homeless population, with some youth and female segments seeing incidences of 100% or more with several individuals who suffer sexual violence on multiple distinct occasions from different people and sometimes ongoing ones. These people are not going to be deterred by increased conviction rates or “being taught not to rape”, they already know that rape is wrong and illegal, they do it because circumstances allow them to do it with impunity. You might as well try to teach fire not to burn.
Of course combating these assaults would require more social services, more shelters for vulnerable and more workers. My God that sounds like actual work… and who knows how much that’ll cost.
Far better to write 4000 word treatises on “rape culture” and pen long posts on blogs and social media and call for changes to police procedure and legislation, none of which will do sweet fuck all to fix the underlying problem and will often result in miscarriages of justice, but hey we get to feel self-righteous.
EDIT: I quoted his post before he edited it.
Where have I done that? Or in other words, what the heck does that have to do with what I’ve said?
More than 100%, you say?:dubious:
When you talk about penalising false rape allegations creating reluctance to come forward. For most people in this circumstances, at the edges of scoiety their reluctance is not based upon that, but on a general and often well-founded mistrust of officialdom, which typically wishes they would disappear. In other words, reluctance to engage is not due to fears of disbelieved or being “raped again on the witness stand” (as some say) but because of a general reluctance to deal with the police. Often as many of them don’t have totally clean records eithers, they don’t want the police looking closely into their affairs.
Poorly worded attempt to state that many have been raped multiple times. And of course because real life is worse than fiction, I have seen cases where the same person is victim of sexual violence at from some persons(s) while simultaneously inflicting the same on others.
Even if it’s hard to prove that the rape actually occurred, it would actually have to be proven that the accuser lied for them to face any consequences, and that’s highly unlikely if they didn’t actually lie. I doubt even a large percentage of the liars would be prosecuted, much less ones that didn’t actually lie, but if there were a few such cases publicized, it would encourage potential liars to refrain from doing so, would give potential victims of such lies a little more hope that they won’t be victimized by some sociopath with nothing to lose, and it would make people take valid accusations a little more seriously since they were made knowing there’s a potential for being punished if they were lies.
Then they weren’t going to come forward anyway, so are irrelevant to the equation. It’s the others who would have, who now won’t. And that will become a sizeable percentage if harsh laws come in, IMO.
That doesn’t make those of us who suffered more than 1 rape, more than 100% rape victims. Or at least, it doesn’t make me such, can’t speak for others. “Poorly worded” is right.
Possibly, IANAL - but counter-accusations of lying are par for the course already in this sort of thing, no? If there were more incentive, that would surely increase.
I don’t think its going to deter others. People already know its a bad idea to lie to the police.
Criminals lie. Murderers. Rapists, thieves all do and its par for the course. Real life is not like the movies, when confronted with evidence people don’t usually break down and admit everything, they’ll try to “clarify”, deny, obfuscate make counter accusations against the victim, the police, Ronald Reagans ghost; damn near anyone who they can blame, no matter how far fetched, but never themselves.
In nearly a decade at the Bar, I have heard hundreds of criminal claim police brutality; I have seen it only once, and that is when an officer pushed a suspect during interrogation after said suspect had spat on him. One of your main jobs as Defence Counsel is praying that the accused’s mouth has’nt ruined his case before you are handed the brief. Not to mention complicate your life when you make the mitigation plea, because of victim-blaming.
Police, judges and lawyers are quite well aware about lying criminals and are unlikley to be swayed by mere allegations, sans supporting evidence, so no incresed incentive exists,
Err, no, it’s going to deter people who are telling the truth.
This assumes no inherent paternalistic bias in the system(s), geared towards perpetuating rape culture(s). Which, sorry for your profession, is not my observation.
“Paternalistic bias”? Really? Whats your evidence and exposure? As a counsel? Judge? Juryman? Accused? Victim? Because, otherwise its your own anecdotal experiences sans context. My own experiences are that instead of bias most people on both sides on the bench and bar seem to be jaded and cynical which results in a situation as CP Harvey Q.C famously said
.
Well, victim, for one.
But mostly, I go by news and internet reports…
…plus, you know, I happen to actually exist in society, so I’m very aware of the overarching patriarchy - you’d have to be very naive to think it didn’t affect every subdomain, including such a Old Male-dominated one as the judiciary. I’m not sure which Bar you’re a member of - maybe it’s different there?
Here’s a fun one from today’s fail (Prosecutors ‘slowed down’ CCTV footage of commuter accused of bizarre sex assault on actress ‘which make him look more guilty’). Man brushes past woman going the opposite direction in a busy crowded tube station. Shoulders touch briefly for a split second, but not enough for either of them to even slow down. Later out of the blue she accused him of rape, and gave detailed accounts of how he had “sexually penetrated her” (in front of dozens of people, and all the while he was holding a newspaper in one hand and the strap of his backpack in the other, and while she was wearing trousers and a dress) – although she could not pick him out in a lineup so the split second penetrative rape clearly didn’t leave such a big impression on her.
Still it took him more than a year of police interrogations and court proceedings and as he describe it: “a living hell”. And still only his name can be published, not hers. If it is anything close to what is described here, it absolutely boggles the mind, she deserve punishment for such a frivilous and obvious false accusation and the crown deserves to be taken to the cleaners.
Apparently these days, all men face the risk of being accused of rape for just walking through the day, minding their own business. To be honest, if that is all it takes, then I raped 3-4 people today - including one school child.
A bad prosecution is not evidence to support the OP’s proposal.
Well it’s also the case of an evil woman (who has been named btw.) who smeared an innocent man and dragged him and his name through a year of hell for no reason. And the fact that such an absurd case was allowed to continue for over a year bears testament to a degree of delusion in the prosecutor’s office which is almost beyond comprehension. As I said, she and the crown deserve to have the book thrown at them. Her guilt is of course of a different sort than rape, whether more or less grivious is a matter of discussion.