Should Homophobe Muslims in the west realize that diversity and respect run both ways?

Part of the manifold problems with your posts is that you don’t really understand the evolution of “Western values” any more than you understand what you call “Islamic values”.

Many Christians and Jews voluntarily seek arbitration by religious governing bodies in certain circumstances, rather than appealing solely to the laws of civil authorities. (For instance, observant Jews and Catholics require a determination from a religious official or organization before recognizing a divorce. The congregations of many Protestant churches recognize the authority of councils of elders to decree the “shaming” or ostracizing of members considered to be acting immorally. Etc., etc., etc.)

So no, we cannot tell Muslim communities in the West that they can’t voluntarily establish religious arbitration entities such as Shari`a courts to make religious rulings within their own religious communities. That would be a violation of religious freedom as mandated by modern Western values.

We can certainly forbid such entities to apply their rulings to non-Muslims and others who don’t recognize their authority, and we can require their decisions to comply with various baseline regulations in our laws (e.g., no mutilation, no stoning, etc.). But we can’t just make a blanket prohibition of “no Shari`a courts” and claim that we’re upholding freedom. That’s bullshit.

Again, a large part of your problem here is that you don’t understand the evolution of Western values themselves. You imagine that the particular modern urban level of social freedom that you’re personally familiar and comfortable with is somehow intrinsically and essentially “Western”. Nonsense. Westerners disagree all the time about what sort of behavior is socially acceptable, and what counts as socially acceptable in Western societies has changed very rapidly over a very short time.

For example, until very recently, most Western societies had sex-segregated hours for public swimming-pool use (and many Western schools, for instance, still segregate swimming pool use by sex). Likewise, plenty of Westerners oppose swimsuit-wearing (or some subset of it, such as topless sunbathing or thong bikini bottoms) in public parks.

Conservative Muslims have the same right as any other socially conservative people and/or anti-dog types to protest against current social customs that they find offensive. They certainly don’t have the right to impose their preferences on the majority who disagree with them, but they sure as hell have the right to express their preferences. Disagree with them courteously and go about your bikini-wearing, mixed-bathing, dog-walking business. (And yes, do pick up and properly dispose of your dog’s poop. As for the sniffer dogs, when they’re all replaced by bees it will be a non-issue anyway.)

On this issue, for a miracle, you happen to be right. I have explained in a number of similar threads before this my take on the principle that “burqa = purdah”: i.e., wearing the burqa is a tacit acceptance of the conservative Islamic prohibition against women participating in society outside their own homes or interacting in any way with males they’re not related to.

The burqa should rightly be permitted as a sort of mobile purdah environment for Muslim women who need to do things like grocery shopping and going to the doctor while still technically not interacting with strangers. But Muslim women who want to participate in secular society in any meaningful way—whether by holding a job, taking a class, having an interview with a government official, whatever—need to comply with the universal custom in secular society of showing one’s face to strangers and speaking to them directly.

I have nothing against the expectation that Muslim taxi drivers at airports should be required to serve all passengers carrying items permitted by law, irrespective of whether those items comply with conservative Muslim doctrine or not. But only if it’s accompanied by an equally strong expectation that, say, Christian pharmacists at drugstores should be required to fill all prescriptions for legally-permitted substances, irrespective of whether those substances comply with conservative Christian doctrine or not.

In fact, I propose that all the conservative Christian pharmacists become airport taxi drivers, since they have no doctrinal prohibition against transporting liquor, and all the conservative Muslim airport taxi drivers become pharmacists, since they have no doctrinal prohibition against birth control. Problems solved!

As it happens, I know plenty of people in Muslim communities who are already an asset to my country and are valuable and respected citizens I’m proud to call friends and neighbors. They don’t need your seal of approval to be worthy of being here, dickhead.

Standard boilerplate hysteria directed against pretty much every immigrant community since human migrations began.

It is perfectly possible for rational supporters of democratic freedom to oppose religious extremism and intolerance wherever it appears, without indulging in this sort of frantic spittle-flecked ranting about “help we’re being overrun by TEH ALIENS!!!”

Valteron’s complaints about Muslims supposedly not believing in “the Seperation of Church and State” is rather ridiculous considering how many western countries don’t have Seperation of Church and State.

Israel doesn’t believe in it, nor do any of the Scandanavian countries, nor does the UK or Ireland. Nor, for that matter, does his own Canada.

Perhaps the US should forbid immigration from Canada until they mend their ways.

<insert disparaging poutine reference here>

What Canada should clearly do is tighten immigration rules to exclude bigots and racists.

That would be a step forward!

Canada may do what it chooses regarding immigration, but it sure would be nice to see them find a way to prohibit emigration of bigots, racists, and xenophobes of all stripes. We already have enough home grown nuts without accepting effluent running down across the 49th parallel and the St. Lawrence Seaway. :stuck_out_tongue:

You are a total fucking idiot.

So you’re cool with condo owners who ban dogs (and other pets) for any other reason real or stupid, ya know their condo their rules, . . . or is that a red herring too?

CMC fnord!

But it isn’t simply a matter of numbers, it’s a matter of concentration and distribution as well. That is, Muslims are not seven and a half per cent of every town and city in Paris, nor are they six percent of every town and city in Germany or the Netherlands. Muslim immigrants tend to concentrate into their own communities in larger cities, and it cannot reasonably be denied that a number of these communities have become (for all practical purposes) Islamic mini-states profoundly hostile to the rest of the nation. And it can hardly be denied that Muslim violence against Christans (and other non-Muslims) greatly outweighs Christian violence against Muslims. Christians don’t burn cars during Ramadan, nor do Christian street gangs harass and attack women whom they beleive are “immodestly” dressed, Christians have not bombed the offices of a humor magazine which they claim insulted Christianity, Christian mobs have not attacked mosques, Christians have not forced cartoonists and authors to go into hiding, and Christians have not bombed trains.

Granted, most Muslims couldn’t care less about jihadism and just want to get on with their lives, but it’s quite clear that the level of violent radicalism is much higher in the Islamic world than the Western world, and it’s quite clear that there are many Muslims throughout the Islamic world who regard Western civilization as an enemy to be conquered. Moreover, thanks to the “Arab Spring,” the political power and influence of the Islamists is growing rapidly, particularly in Egypt.

You may be right that Valteron is overreacting, but to insist that there is no serious problem with the growing presence of Islam in the west, that there is not a serious clash of two civilizations going on here, is whistling past the graveyard. To dismiss anyone who takes note of this danger as a “bigot” is dishonest and cowardly.

Nah, “making political hay” is a reasonable characterization of a lot of Valteron’s posting on this subject.

Certainly radical-extremist Islamic fundamentalist violence against gays is a serious threat to freedom and civil rights (as is all violence against gays, of course). And Islamic fundamentalist support for terrorism or attempts to curtail civil liberties of non-Muslims must absolutely be rejected wherever it appears.

But a lot of the stuff Valteron is getting all hysterical about is just superficial cultural difference, and it certainly isn’t heralding the fucking doom of Western civilization or any of that melodramatic guff.

Taxi drivers not wanting to transport passengers carrying liquor? Condo owners not wanting their tenants to keep dogs? Residents near a park not wanting people in the park to wear bathing suits? Gimme a break.

Non-Muslim majorities certainly shouldn’t feel obligated to change existing laws or behavior to conform to conservative Muslim cultural norms if they don’t want to, but neither should they indulge in panty-bunching hysterical fearmongering about OMG HELP WE’RE BEING OVERRUN. It just makes them look like a gaggle of xenophobic rubes panicking at the sight of “the furriners”.

News flash, folks: yes, furriners are furrin and they’ve got lots of funny ways that ain’t what we do around here. And sometimes, being furrin and not accustomed to our ways, they get upset about our ways not being what they’re used to. Don’t go getting all flustered about it. Getting all flustered and scolding at the furriners for being too uppity just makes the nasty ones feel important while it makes the nice ones feel picked on.

I assume you’d be cool with the owners forbidding tenants to have pork or alcohol on the premises or to display any religious symbols except Islamic ones.

What do you mean, Canada doesn’t have any separation of church and state? I’d like to know what you’re thinking about before answering it.

That sounds portentous and all, but I have no idea what it’s actually supposed to mean. Do these communities effectively have armies and police forces and territorial control that makes them not answerable to the law of the land? Or does it just mean that these are ethnic enclaves within larger communities still struggling with cultural assimilation?

Nonsense. There is certainly a problem nowadays with Islamic violent extremist fundamentalism, to a small extent in the west and to a much greater extent in Islamic countries themselves. But that is not the same thing as there being a problem with “the growing presence of Islam in the west”.

To conflate those two fundamentally different issues and pretend they’re the same thing is a noxious distortion of reality attributable only to bigotry or ignorance and fear, or some combination of all three.

The problem is that you accuse anyone who resists the changes they want to make, and who are quite naturally offended and upset that “furriners” want to change the rules in their communities, of being xenophobic bigots. And in some areas, we are being overrun. Wake up and smell the hummus.

A particulary large pebble in my shoe is that swimming pool issue. Here non-Muslim men are denied access to a public facility for two or three hours several times a week, because Muslims claim it’s against their religion for men and women to swim together; yet many of the tolerant, open-minded sophisticated, cosmopolitan people who see no probem with this will have a hissy fit over a cross in a national park. If Muslims want gender segregation, they should build or buy their own private pools. They shouldn’t be allowed to change the rules at public facilities to suit their religion.

Ptooey. Once again you’ve tiptoed quietly around the issue of Muslim violence against non-Muslims, preferring to indulge yourself in name-calling.

No, they shouldn’t. But if the surrounding community offers to accommodate them, as a gesture of humane tolerance and generosity, as a way of signaling that they have little or nothing to fear from the strangers around them…what’s the harm? Around here, I can’t buy booze on Sunday, because of Christians. OK, so I buy it on Saturday, or stay sober. Big hairy ass deal.

So, who changed the rules? Did they, with violence or threats of violence? Or did the surrounding communities shrug and say “OK, what the heck. We’ll cut you some slack, no biggy.”?

I don’t eat Lebanese food, it makes me feel awful…

Hmmm,
dogs (and other pets) banned from condos,
forbidding tenants to have pork or alcohol,
forbidding tenants to display any religious symbols except Islamic ones.

Let me think. :confused:

Oh yeah, that’s it,
One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn’t belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others,
By the time I finish my post?

CMC fnord!
Ya know, it is entirely possible that some Muslim condo owners might just ban dogs for the exact same reason that non-Muslim condo owners do.
If you pass a law that prevents Muslim condo owners from banning dogs for specifically religious reasons they can simply ban them for the non-religious reasons that non-Muslim condo owners are allowed to, and do.
Given that I’m quite familiar with you, and your posting history, you’ll certainly forgive me for thinking that you really didn’t think this, or it, through before you decided to responded to me.

Resisting changes that the “furriners” want to make doesn’t make anyone a xenophobic bigot: I’ve said quite clearly all along that non-Muslim majorities shouldn’t feel obligated to change existing laws and behavior to conform to conservative Muslim norms.

It’s the getting all offended and upset that a group of fellow-citizens with different cultural norms from yours have the nerve to even TRY to push for changes in existing laws and behavior to conform to their cultural norms that makes one a xenophobic bigot.

A free society means that people of different views argue publicly about what social norms should be. Conservative Muslims are just as entitled as any other prudish people to attempt in a courteous and law-abiding way to make the prevailing social norms conform more closely to what they consider appropriate behavior.

The cross in a national park issue is quite clearly government promotion of religion, and consequently clearly unconstitutional.

Including some sex-segregated swimming times in a local swimming pool schedule to accommodate residents with different cultural norms may not be a wise or fair local policy choice with respect to the preferences of the majority, but I cannot for the life of me see how it would count as unconstitutional.

Consequently, I think the relative allocation of hissy fits by tolerant open-minded sophisticated cosmopolitan people concerning these two issues has been correctly determined.

The Canadian head of state is the head of the Anglican church.

Once again you’ve deliberately and misleadingly characterized radical Muslim-fundamentalist extremist violence against non-Muslims as “Muslim violence against non-Muslims”, justifying still further my use of the term “bigotry”.

They don’t. Their constitution is based on the UK not the US. Why do you think the sessions of the House of Commons was opened, until very recently, with an explicitly Christian prayer.

David Frum gave other examples in a discussion over the hissy fits a few Canadians engaged in when they heard of the possibility of having “ZOMG SHARIA COURTS!!!” in Ontario.

http://frum.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZDAyYzYwM2I2ODBkYmQzODYzMDMzOTcxMDY0YTliYTE=

Separation of Church and State is hardly a universal Western value.