Should I let my child go to a church club?

In My Humble Opinion
21

Is it weird for a parent who wants her child to be an independent thinker to allow him to explore something harmless that he’s interested in? Well, no, in my opinion that’s just being a good parent.

When you get right down to where the cheese binds, the issue is this: Do you feel that being exposed to religion is harmful or unethical in any way? If so, then don’t let him go. If not, then look at this as part of him figuring out what he believes and who he is. You’ve raised him to think for himself, right? Well, this is him doing what you taught him to do.

When children grow up, they tend to grow away from their parents, from their lifestyle and ways of thinking. Some of them grow further away than others. It’s hard to watch them grow away from you. Real hard. It’s scary. It’s one of those crappy things about being a parent nobody ever tells you about, like the days when he was a baby and shrieked inconsolably for 7 hours straight, until all you could do was go sit on the porch so the neighbors could see you weren’t beating him and cry.

And I think that’s a lot of the reason you’re so conflicted about this weekend camp thing. You see letting him go as letting him take a great big ol’ step away from you and the things you think are important. You talk about not being worried about them converting him, but I think a deep part of you that you don’t like to acknowlege is afraid of just exactly that. You’re afraid that if you let him go his own path, his path is going to split off from yours and you’ll never walk in the same direction again.

And you know what? That’s a perfectly normal, healthy, reasonable way to feel. All parents worry about their kids growing away from them, both emotionally and ideologically. Eventually, you reach a point where your desire for him to be happy and independent comes into opposition with your desire for him to have your values and ideas about happiness. You’ve run into that point. It’s okay for you to feel conflicted about this.

What’s not okay, imo, is to let those feelings of conflict come between your child and something harmless that’s going to make him happy. And near as I can tell, this camp sounds pretty harmless. (Unless, of course, you consider religion in and of itself harmful, in which case you should never have allowed him to join this youth group.) After all, these people haven’t put any pressure on him in the last four years, have they? You honestly don’t think he’s going to convert, which is pretty much your worst case scenario, right? So what harm is there? That it might be high-pressure and cause him to not have much fun? Not having as much fun as expected never killed anybody, and he’s certainly old enough to learn to deal with disappointment. Besides, my money’s on him and his non-religious buddies sitting around after lights out talking shit about the high-pressure tactics, making fart noises in their armpits, speculating about boobies, and having a grand old time.

I know it’s hard, but I really think you need to let him do this, for both of your sakes.

22

Thank you so much for your very well thought out and sincere posts. I love this place.

I shall send the child off a bit more happily now. :slight_smile:

I do still wonder why people insist atheists must expose their children to religion though (as you can see from my posts, I don’t have a problem with it) it just seems some people think my child is disadvantaged if he isn’t exposed to religion. Doesn’t he have his whole life for that?

CrazyCatLady you made many good points…it is hard to see you “baby” move on. Thank you for helping me feel less neurotic. Magiver yes I am in awe of the universe and I have very few answers to anything but thank you for your kind words. :slight_smile:

23

I’m assuming at this point that your son has gone on his trip and, hopefully, is having a wonderful time. However, I’d just like to point out, from a personal anecdote no less, that sometimes there are a few more things that (I don’t think) have been addressed.

Right around his age is when I became a fundamentalist Christian. What spurred this was my maternal Grandfather’s death and my Mother’s belief that we all needed to be saved from eternal hell-fire and damnation. Church, in and of itself, could be somewhat tame, having to force instruction, praise and fellowship into such a short amount of time, especially for those who fell into the “youth” category.

However, special ‘retreats’, be it over the weekend or camps, seemed to have a quite different purpose, at least IMHO. That was focused more on salvation from certain eternal torment (in the environment I was in) and pretty much pressured onto us more so than the actual ‘take a break, fun’ activities. You had this feeling of “last chance or nothing”, a kind of counterpoint to “What happens if I leave here, unsaved, and get hit by a bus and die?” philosophy. It’s very scary, especially when all your peers seem to be falling, left and right, for this strategy. I know I did, and unlike many of my friends, I tried to walk the talk for many years afterwards rather just a few short weeks to impress the parents or congregation.

For me, it was damaging. For your son, who seems very capable of thinking for himself, it sounds like he’ll fare just fine. I didn’t have much skills to cope with what all I was going through and was further hindered by my mother’s controlling. fearful attitude. It took many years and therapy to work through that, and although I believe I have, I still wonder.

So, my best advice to you (which probably isn’t even worth the price of a pack of gum ;)) is to talk to him extensively when he returns, mostly regarding how he feels. Make absolutely positively sure that he made any decisions on sound judgment and why ‘going with the flow’ (if that’s even applicable) could be more damaging than good. Overall, I’m sure he’s going to be doing well. But in the future, I would make certain, in advance, that whatever he is involved with is more for his benefit as he perceives it and less because that’s what his friends do. You’ll feel better about his choices and yet he has freedom.

Good luck to you both and I hope he’s had tons of fun and no kind of manipulation because they can and do have a captive audience.

P.S. Also, I’m very proud that there are parents like you who are willing to let their children explore on their own, outside your own belief system, and make mistakes. I wish I’d been given those tools as a child or maybe I wouldn’t have ended up quite as screwed-up as I am. Unfortunately, unlike you, my mother did NOT think that was her responsibility. Just shielding me from the world and refusing to allow me to deal with anything remotely realistic, was her tactic of choice. Someday, many of years of therapy later, I’ll overcome that.

You hang in there. Sounds like you’re doing a tremendously superb job. Your son is fortunate. Keep us posted on how it turned out.

24

Ooh, the very same thing happened to my boyfriend when he was a kid. All his friends went to Bible Camp in the summer and he wanted to go, too, so he could spend time with them.

Then one day they locked him in the basement until he agreed to accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.

His mom didn’t let him go back after that.

25

This is one of those decisions that makes me very glad I’m not a parent.

I’m an atheist, and I would not want my child to go to any kind of religious camp.

But I also believe that a child has the right to pursue their own beliefs, of course.

I keep thinking that ten years old is too young to make his own mind up. I’d probably not let my hypothetical ten year old go to a religious camp, and let him make up his own mind when he’s older. No, I have no clue when that would be, but ten seems way young. I fear that at ten it’s too easy to convince a child of nearly anything, and going to a religious camp (or a camp that teaches anything, including atheism if such a camp existed) is more akin to brainwashing than “finding his own way”.

It seems to me that there aren’t enough adult critical thinkers, and it’s too much to ask of a ten year old to not be too credulous.

26

I can only speak from experience. Both of my sons at various times became associated with “church youth groups”. Both churches were ordinary bricks and mortar suburban churches and each one had a friend that went there. When they asked I found out what I could from friend’s parent and then took my kid along first time and chatted to a few people (kids and adults). It all seemed pretty tame and each boy went to his group for about 8 - 12 months. IIRC both stopped going when the friend stopped.

My attitude was probably influenced by my parents. They were atheists but I went to Sunday school until I was in Primary school. When I got sick of it I asked why i had to go and was told I didn’t and never went again. However when I was about 15 or 16 a group of us started hanging around with a bunch of very strange people (speaking in tongues, miracles etc). Although my parents were clearly not thrilled they let this run its short course.

27

Get the schedule.
There is one, there always is. Even the loosest, flimsiest of camps has a schedule… see how much time is devoted to what and when. If they won’t show you the schedule - don’t let him go. (And there is a difference between “You, the parent can’t see the schedule” and “Here it is, but don’t show it to the kids, we want it to be a surprise.”) Then talk to a kid who did it last year and find out what happened.

After that, I could see it going either way. Even for mainline-ish churches, there’s more than one type of weekend retreat, especially for teenagers. There are the kinds where the kids and leaders are just hanging out for the weekend - they run around, they run some more, they eat tons of sugar, then they run around even more (unless they take a break to throw foam balls at each other, while giggling). Occasionally, there’s a break with a Bible lesson and there’s prayer before meals; but the major ideas for the weekend are running, stupid human tricks, and sugar.
There are also the kinds of weekend retreats that are more “serious.” Where the theme of the weekend is to explore beliefs, talk about religion, ask religious questions, pray, study, etc. It’s assumed that the kids there are serious about Christianity already, this is just deepening their faith. There’s still a bit of running around and sugar, but that’s not the focus for the weekend.
And then there are the type (which I’ve never experienced, but have heard of) where they lock you in a closet until you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior. I wouldn’t send my theoretical 13 year-old there, and I’m Protestant.

28

calm kiwi, actually I do believe that Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Voudoun, animist, and all other parents should expose their children to other religions. And, as an atheist, I think atheist kids should learn about religion.

I was raised in the Lutheran Church (ELCA) and during our Sunday School and Confirmation classes we learned about other religions. We visited a synagogue and a Catholic Church and talked with the rabbi and the priest about the differences between our religion and theirs. I grew up in a smaller midwestern city, so there wasn’t a mosque or a Buddhist temple or anything more exotic to visit, but we talked about Islam and eastern religions. All of these experiences were very positive and non-judgemental. (Ecumenicalism was a bit more the rage then than now, I think.) Also, my family always talked about other religions with the utmost respect and encouraged my curiousity about them. I attended Missouri Synod and Bible-believin’ fundementalist churches with high school friends just to learn more about them, with my parent’s blessing.

Any kid should learn about the different religions of the world, regardless of the religion (or lack thereof) followed by their family.

FWIW, even as a pinko atheist I wouldn’t have a problem sending my kid to Republican camp if he wanted to go, unless I judged that he was too young and impressionable, and they might lodge too many strange ideas in his young growing brain. :slight_smile: As for the other example, well, I dunno. I think I’d be equally hesitant sending him to PETA or bullfighting camp, as I don’t really agree with either of them! :wink:

29

calm kiwi, I prefer thread titles that are a bit more descriptive, so I went ahead and changed it. If you have any objections, let me know.

30

I do (insist, I mean). As a kid, I was raised in my church, and my dad took me to other churches too. The only one he wouldn’t take me to was the Pentecostals. I went to Bible Vacation School, mass, and something called Missionettes with my friends. I didn’t know any Jewish kids or I would have gone to synagogue (well, I did a lot of Jewish stuff in college).

My own kids will be visiting their friends’ churches when they’re old enough. DangerGirl is 4, so she’s only been to her buddy’s play so far (she was going to go to his baptism too, but she got sick). Depending on the camp, I would let her go to another religious camp as long as I approved of it. No coercion allowed, of course.

31

I can understand your turmoil, If your right you both end up refined and pumped into some ‘being’'s gas tank millions of years from now, if you are wrong you will suffer througout eternity while your child has the chance of eternal life.

With that out of the way, you must decide how your child should learn about want happens after death. Do you want him to know that there is no God? Do you want him to think for himself? These seem like the 2 options you are trying to sort out. It’s really your decision, not only if you let him go, but how you interact w/ him about going (if you let you know).

32

Since he’s already participating in this club, and this is a club activity, I really think you have no choice but to let him go (btw, I am also an atheist). The real thing is going to be how you talk with your son before and after the camp experience. And I don’t mean that you should try to influence him, spoil his fun, etc. But you need to be open to him talking with you about what happened there, what he liked, what the activities were, etc. That way you will find out what is going on there and what your son thinks about it. And if there is some overtly heavy thing going on at the camp (which hopefully will be unlikely), you will have a chance to discuss it with your son in a rational manner and express your point of view, values, etc.

33

I agree- mostly. If they really are Fundies, this could be dangerous, as they do engage in some proto-brainwashing. But it appears they are a basic non-denom Xtian thing- which is basicly harmless.

Let me make an assumption- let’s say your parents were religious- would it have been wrong to send you off to a science camp? One of those that taught Evolution, too?

34

It’s one thing to insist that you expose your children to religion. It’s another to say you shouldn’t shield them from it when other people try to expose them to religion.

(1) There are plenty of religious people out there who are closed-minded, pushy, and/or just plain nuts.
(2) There are plenty of religious people out there who are reasonable, rational, benevolent, open-minded, and at least as ticked off as you are about Type #1.
Every atheist (and anyone else) really needs to know both of these things as they go through life.

35

This reminds me of when I took a friend to youth night with me at church every week and he ended up getting converted but his parents were athiest and they were not to happy about it…I think I made a thread about it.
Anyway as a Christian would I let my child have anything to do with an athiest youth camp? Never in a million years.
Although I think it would be great if your kid got converted, looking at this from your point of view I probably wouldn’t let him go.

36

Thank you for all the interesting replies and opinions.

Thudlow I am not anti-Christian. I know some very lovely ones, which is why he goes to this group. They are nice people and they give my son 2 hours of fun a week (always a good thing).

37

Speaking from experience, and as an ‘insider’ to the Christian scene (I consider myself a liberal (small L) Christian, but the church I attend is quite diverse in makeup, even including a small contingent of raving fundies), I would say there’s a fairly strong possibility that a child attending a christian-run holiday camp, particularly one catering for non-christian kids, will be exposed to an elevated level of pressure to convert (that is, considerably more pressure, and for longer, than in a weekly ‘youth club’ type meeting).

Ask the organisers what kind of ‘religious’ meetings will be held, how long and how often/how many, whether attendance is compulsory, and whether there will be ‘altar calls’ - none of the answers to these questions should necessarily prevent your child attending, but if reality turns out to be considerably different from promise, I’d consider withdrawing the child from the group and explaining your reasons to the organisers.

Christian-run youth groups do (in my experience) generally have an agenda of conversion and they do very often conceal this agenda, by varying degrees and not at all uncommonly, sad to say, by means of deliberate deception or dishonesty. It is something I am personally struggling against in my own situation.

38

A couple of points:

When I was a young, young child, my dad taught me that I had a responisbility to know all sides of an arguement before I made my decision.

Until, as I reached adolescence, he made it clear that I still had to explore all pov’s as long as I ultimately rejected all that weren’t the same as his.

Now, that’s hypocrisy. And even though I was a “kid” I knew it, and it damaged the way I saw him. Because of the hypocrisy, and because he led me to believe that he trusted me, when in fact, he didn’t.

Another point:

As soon as I could read, I started reading the front page every morning with my Cream of Wheat. I was smart enough to know ill-formed crap and manipulation. I believe your child is the same.

When I was his age, a friend asked a bunch of us to go with us to his church’s youth group. Wherein we were told that the USSR was a bunch of godless heathens hell-bent on destroying the world.

Considering I was reading “The Russians” at the time, I called bullshit. I was open to considering their ideas until they started spewing that crap. I mean, even I knew, at the age of 13 or 14, that if they couldn’t take the time to realize that the average Russian was religious, and that there’s a big difference between a nation’s government - especially when it’s totalitarian! duh! - and it’s people, then everything else they said was now deeply suspect.

In sum, let him go. More importantly, I think the discussion about whether this is hypocritical is a good discussion to have with him.

39

Good point Niblet and we have discussed it. Actually rightly or wrongly I told him about this thread and told him why I felt a bit weird about letting him go.

In NZ today there was a big pro and anti march (about civil union and the “importance of family”) on parliment, it led to a good conversation with the child.

The anti civil unions types were declaring that a family has to have a mother, father and children. The child said “I never knew we wern’t a family. Can I still call you mum?” We giggled like girlies and then had a very cool chat about religion, homosexuality and even bullying at his school.

He’s only 13 but he knows his mind. I now believe the biggest challenge about the weekend will be the flying fox! He’s a pretty cool kid but he is a HUGE wuss. It’s genetic.

40

Another LDS parent that welcomed opportunites for the KidSthrnAccents to fellowship, learn and play with kids of other faiths. They went to Lutheran preschool, Baptist, Methodist and Catholic Sunday School and Vacation Bible school while elementary age. The oldest had a Jehovah Witness friend, but only went with his friend once and after that declined invitations to church activities. He was fairly young, first grade or so, and said only that it wasn’t happy church and he didn’t want to go again. We regularly vacationed in an area that didn’t have LDS meetings within a couple of hours travel until a few years ago and so we’d attend an outdoor service open to all faiths. It was conducted by different faiths each week.

Now that the older one is in high school I don’t need to look for those opportunities. He’s participated in a get to know the kids and religion in the church next door activities with the Presbyterians. Their church got struck by lightening and burned. Even though three LDS congregations meet in our building, our Bishops (like a pastor) offered to our building to them for their meetings. We moved Sunday meetings to the late afternoon and an alternate day for the youth meetings. In addition to the ask questions about the other guy circle sessions the youth and their leaders held, our youth sponsored a community garage sale that brought in over $10,000. toward their rebuilding fund. He has also been exposed to Greek Orthodox and learned a bit about ancient Greek Gods from his friend who is from Greece.

During lunch at school the LDS kids and their friends (about 5 of them) tend to gravitate to the same table. Kids of other faiths (and those without) know who they are and join them for lunch and to ask questions. For awhile it was a mixed group of protestant kids, later a few Pentecostals, and for a time a group of non-believers some who claimed not to have made a decision and a couple who self identify as athiests. TSA says mostly it’s myth busting, but now and then they get into interesting discussions that cause him to ask questions at home or at seminary. (Seminary is a daily high school level class LDS kids take daily. Down here it’s early in the morning from 5:45 to 6:30 a.m.)

Being a teenager from Texas he’s also familiar with the worship of Football, Swimming, Pizza, Trucks and lately he’s discovered the Sect of the Cel phone. :smiley:

Kidding aside, experiencing and learning about other religions is a great and necessary way to learn about yourself, your religion, your faith and the world in which you live.