Should mandatory DNA proof of paternity be required in all births?

Great Debates
81

You did it again, amarinth. But even my quote taken out of context doesn’t mean what you say it does. I’m not sure you read my original response. I’ll try again.

These are three malicious acts:

  1. Beating a spouse.
  2. Paternity fraud with a view to obtaining child support payments.
  3. Paternity fraud within the context of a stable relationship, effectively the deliberate theft of the fatherhood of a husband who loves and respects his wife.

Especially note that malicious act number three is not, “raising a child”.

I believe that one and three are of equal magnitude. That’s what I’m saying.

I believe that two is the lesser offence, but as drachillix says, should be punishable as though it was any other fraud or theft.

But, if she then tries to pass off the child as her husband’s, knowing full well it may be the gardener’s child, then that’s another “crime”. Whether you understand it or not, biological parentage is important to a lot of people.

I take your point, but I feel that the secret paternity test is the lesser evil, no-one’s feelings get hurt that way.

Generally, although private investigators have been used to steal DNA samples. And of course, there’s the DNA database…

The concept of emotional blackmail comes in with Sheila’s reaction in your dialogue. Now Sheila could be a faithful wife who is merely affronted. Equally she could be well aware that the paternity of the child is in doubt, and trying to prevent the test being done. Brad would presumably like to believe the former, but he has no way of telling. If he backs down, and doesn’t take the test, Sheila, you and others would no doubt claim that he has now accepted the child as his own.

If you know how to reliably tell the difference between a faithful and an unfaithful partner, don’t waste your knowledge here. Write a book - you will make a fortune.

In the case of a spouse, yes. Or to clarify, we are so concerned about hurting her feelings that we will effectively commit to supporting a child for it’s entire lifetime, although I doubt that most men are aware of all the legal ramifications. We know that we would be putting our relationship in danger, and the odds are in our favour after all.

Sadly, I think that this is the case. But remember that marriage and parenthood are already the subject of many laws. All we’re talking about here is how to close an apparent loophole in the system.

Maybe you’re right, perhaps we should just, as you say, “grow some balls”, get the test done and take the consequences. Put up or shut up as it were. Perhaps that simply is the best way forward rather than hoping for a change to the law.

I am generally in favour of protecting civil liberties from the government, but in this case I just don’t see the potential for harm. What bad things can the government do with a DNA database?

82

I said nothing of the sort.

If the acts are equally malicious, the effects of the acts on the other person must be equally bad.

The effect on the other person of act number one is being beaten.
The effect on the other person of act number two is paying for a child that he believe to be his.
The effect on the other person of act number three is raising a child that he believe to be his.

No, those are not equally bad effects in my point of view. (Especially if #3 never finds out that his assumption is wrong) Amazingly different effets.

83

Knowing your DNA can tell you A LOT about a person’s present health, future health, and even their children’s health.

A few (of many) scenarios that could come up:

  • The US military institutes a draft that only applies to people with a high innate muscles mass

  • The government prevents some people from having children because of the unacceptably high risk that those children will have a debilitating disease and be a burden on society.

  • You work for the Dept. of Transportation and are fired based on the high liklihood you will get Parkinson’s Disease soon.

  • The health insurance companies are losing money and may soon go out of business. The government decides to release DNA information on those they cover to the insurance companies. Soon those companies are back in the black because they dropped everyone with a predisposition to breast or prostate cancer.

  • Medicare decides to cover disease if they are inherited, but not if they are a reault of lifestyle choices. They just look at your DNA and figure out if that lung cancer is written in your genes and was inetivatble, or if it’s from your smoking. If it’s the latter, pay for it yourself.

  • During a presidental election it is leaked that Candidate A has a predisposition for depression. This is a decisive factor in Candidate B’s victory.

There are so many more, but I’ll just leave your imagination to work.

84

I said nothing of the sort. You and mangeorge are reading malice into this that is neither intended nor implied. They will help you, even save your life, but don’t expect them to thank you for it or be nice about it.

No, if the doctor doesn’t like it he will tell you to find another doc. Ambushing them with your demands in the delivery room will cause problems which can impact you and your baby’s health.

To end this aspect, I am no longer working in the biz but I did for a few years. My wife is a high risk specialized L&D nurse. One of the reasons she married me is because I do understand the pressure and stress medical personell face. I also have decent basic anatomy and physiology as well as knowledge of common drugs used in prehospital and many acute care hospital situations. So she can come home and explain why she had a hard day and I actually understand.

If you and Autz are better medically educated than most, then great, make those informed decisions clear during prenatal care so your doc can explain his POV and where you might be misinformed, to make arrangements to comply with your needs/desires, or to give you time to find an alternative care provider.

Walking into a hospital ready to deliver and start giving orders contradictory to what the staff has already laid out based on your doctors instructions and you are going to have a miserable experience. You will pretty much get branded as non-compliant and people are going to be hesitant to deal with you. Not because they wish you harm but because people who act that way are also seem to be the lawsuit-happy ones. The reason why many of these procedures that people refuse became standard procedure is because the hospital has been sued for not doing it before when they knew it was a good idea but not common practice. So now they have to document your refusal to comply with SOP causing more work for them. This will impact your “level of service” just because there are only X number of people to care for you. You want to know the details ask lots of questions on your visits, ask for detailed explanations of what will be done to you then. What happens when that nurse has two other patients who want everything explained and documented.

Medical personell spend tons of time explaining the exeptions and reasons why things “don’t look like the do on TV”. Or they didn’t do that on “ER”. The average person on the street has little comprehension of how their body really works, especially compensatory mechanisms for serious injuries and how your body responds/adapts to pregnancy.

If you want to draw this aspect out any further please feel free to pit me.

85

Well, of course part of being informed and prepared is having a doctor who is willing to work with you and discuss these aspects of alternative care–I would never just walk into a hospital cold and start throwing demands around. I just dislike the implication that if a doctor doesn’t like you, they wouldn’t “go the extra mile” as you put it.

Well, that’s part of their job, isn’t it?

No need, it’s off topic anyway. Just be aware that not all of those “standard procedures” are in any way necessary, and that some people care enough about their birth experience and the handling and treatment of their newborn to learn about what’s going on–and may opt out of some of the standard procedures. This doesn’t make me evil or a “religious freedom whacko” or something, because I think certain vaccines and such are uneccessary, it just makes me capable of making an informed decision. Of course, most people in this position know their delivery docter way ahead of time, they’re typically not going to walk into a random hospital and start making demands.

In either case, I would absolutely fight tooth and nail against mandatory DNA profiling, of infants or anyone else. The prospect frightens me too much to even discuss.

Peace,
~mixie

86

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by autz *
Knowing your DNA can tell you A LOT about a person’s present health, future health, and even their children’s health.
[/quote[

  • The US military institutes a draft that only applies to people with a high innate muscles mass

  • The government prevents some people from having children because of the unacceptably high risk that those children will have a debilitating disease and be a burden on society.

  • You work for the Dept. of Transportation and are fired based on the high liklihood you will get Parkinson’s Disease soon.

  • The health insurance companies are losing money and may soon go out of business. The government decides to release DNA information on those they cover to the insurance companies. Soon those companies are back in the black because they dropped everyone with a predisposition to breast or prostate cancer.

  • Medicare decides to cover disease if they are inherited, but not if they are a reault of lifestyle choices. They just look at your DNA and figure out if that lung cancer is written in your genes and was inetivatble, or if it’s from your smoking. If it’s the latter, pay for it yourself.

  • During a presidental election it is leaked that Candidate A has a predisposition for depression. This is a decisive factor in Candidate B’s victory. [/quote]

#1 I never suggested that a governement agency would handle the DB. Your credit handlers already handle far more dangerous info about you. Like I said, I would prefer this was normal, voluntary, and handled by a private company.

#2 I am far more interested in tracking just the 20 or so markers used for identification,not full sequencing.

#3 Blocks handed out for research could be tagged with a simple sample number rather than the actual SSN. Good luck finding a specific individual in that haystack, if hes even in there.

So in a nutshell your whole post is pretty much irrelevant.

Although I like the life choices vs genetic thing, but that is a whole nuther thread.

With or without full sequencing.

87

Sweet Jeebus, doctor.

~mixie

88

So fraud and theft are ok as long as the victim never finds out. Especially if the “affair” continues. Sure let dad sit at home with the affair’s child while the cheating wife zips off to hawaii for a few days with the other man under the guise of a “business trip”

In the case of younger and financially challenged couples where this is more common, this can become especially emotionally and financially devastating. Part of why I made the comparison between abuse and paternity fraud was the ongoing fear and anxiety attached to it. Wat if I lose my job, what if I can’t pay my bills, I could lose my drivers licence, I could go to jail (in theory).

Clinging to an “Ignorance is bliss” mindset is contradictory of the whole purpose of this board. We fight ignorance here not encourage it.

Even though I disagree with some of Autz posts I did learn things about SSN’s I did not know before from her links. For this I thank her. The respective candles we use to shed light on each others dark places are what makes this community as knowledgable and powerful as it is…

89

mandatory? no.
and in some cases (eg AID) completely pointless and unnecessary.

i think that perhaps paternity testing should be mandatory in custody cases, where it IS an issue, but not for births.

and if my partner requested a test, i’d want to know.
because it suggests that there is a problem with the relationship, regardless of the child’s actual paternity.

should i be able to veto? no. but i’d like to know if the trust and communication had broken down to that stage.

90

So… you don’t know any womann who has a baby by another man, and told you about it, but not her husband? Does this surprise you?

In some ways, paternity fraud is worse than physical abuse. At least with physical abuse, the abused spouse obviously knows about the abuse, and if they stay, that’s their decision (barring threats, which is another matter).

91

Why should financial aid be provided by the taxpayers if there is a father who can be forced to provide for the child.

Problem is, it will generate a hostile reaction, especially if the childs paternity IS questionable. Since there is little if any hope of getting a test done with the womans knowledge without provoking a violent reaction, they should not be able to demand notification. All that does is play into the hands of the cheaters.

Men may be dogs, but guess what, they were cheating with someone.

And give the cheating wife an excuse to run off and file for divorce for the evil mans lack of trust and communication. :rolleyes:
[oscar shot]
"Oh the pity that my husband could not have been more trusting and willing to communicate. "
[/oscar shot]

92

Actually, on second thought, I do know one woman who had a miscarried a child who may have belonged to another man than her SO. We never found out for sure, of course, but she was suspicious that it might not be his child.

The Ryan, yes, I believe that for a great many of the women I know, I would be aware or at least suspicious if they had a baby belonging to someone other than their husband. Yes, we do discuss such things. In addition, I live in and have worked in small towns for years, and there are few secrets in most of those places…if one in ten of my students, friends, neighbors’ children, and classmates were not the biological children of the fathers listed on their enrollment forms, I would know about at least* some* of them. Not all 10%–assuming that statistic is reliable, and I’m not convinced that it is–of course, but some.

Think of it: Every man, woman, and child you know. Every family member, every classmate, every co-worker’s child, EVERYone. Do you believe that 10% of all those people were the end result of a clandestine affair? When I begin thinking in real terms, I find the statistic difficult to support.

I’ve thought about it quite a bit since someone mentioned it earlier, and I cannot see any way in which paternity fraud is “worse” than physical abuse. I don’t mean that to minimize the seriousness of paternity fraud; but by comparing the two and finding them essentially the same in effect, I believe that you are minimizing the dangers of physical abuse.

93

My answer to the original question is yes, mandatory testing for proof of paternity should be done. If it was a standard test then there would be no case of building up courage to ask the woman to allow a test. Saliva swabs are all thats required for a paternity match, no bloods need be drawn, so the argument about medical procedures is a red herring.

Much of what has been writen is using the trust theme. If you ask a man or woman do they trust their partner, and most will say yes, only because they know the repercussions of the negative answer would be dire. What most mean is they hope they can trust their partner. Deep down there is allways the doubt.

One thread sugested that mandatory testing was the wimpish easy way out, sure it is, nothing wrong with that. My response to that would be, would any woman like to go and ask her husband or partner to undertake a polygraph to prove he was never unfaithful? Many seem to have the opinion that paternity is not such a big deal, many women i know have said the same to me, thats easy for a woman, because irrispective if she knows who the father is, she deffinately knows that shes the mother.
quote:

Originally posted by bodypoet
I know a lot of mothers quite well, and I can’t think of anyone, offhand, who has a child by another man without the current husband’s knowledge.
Why dosnt this surprise me… sorry bodypoet but it seems a bit naive to me that you would think a woman would admit it to you, maybe admit to an affair yes, but not to having another mans child aprt from her husbands.

Probably the most revealing thoughts about this subject were given to me by my mother, a strong liberated women in her 70’s.
Women will fight tooth and nail to prevent this from ever happening, not because of damage to any child, but because of damage to their image. She explained that for as long as she could remember women had held the moral high ground regarding fidelity in relationships. it was generally seen as the man who strayed, in her many years she knew of many women who had had affairs, and quite a few who had children not from their husbands, she believes that there would be quite a shock if dna testing were done, and for that reason women will allways fight it

rogue

94

bodpoet:
Think of it: Every man, woman, and child you know. Every family member, every classmate, every co-worker’s child, EVERYone. Do you believe that 10% of all those people were the end result of a clandestine affair? When I begin thinking in real terms, I find the statistic difficult to support.
Now change that to every woman you know… the statistic that 1 in 4 of them have been a victim of rape, hard to believe? yet we are told its true

not trying to change the thread , or be antagonistic, but something to think about

rogue

95

>quote:

The child is the same child no matter whose DNA turns out to have been involved.

But if its not MY child I should have every right to tell my cheating scum wife/gf to get the hell out of my life without paying support.
[/QUOTE]
<

I agree 100%. Regardless of any law, I wouldn’t shill out a dime for a bastard child of an adulterous affair. Let her go find the real father.

96

Now rogue4007’s going to have us all ondergoing mandatory polygraph testing to prove fidelity! :wink:
Wait a minute, wouldn’t that accomplish the same thing, and be more specific and balabced? Test both partners.
Chew on that one, huh?

97

I’m not saying that I agree with the statistic (not that it’s clear what the statistic is, or how it was obtained, to begin with), but if 10% of all people have the “wrong” father (whatver that means) that doesn’t mean that in every group 10% will have the “wrong” father.

I am definitely not saying that the are essentially the same. Which would you rather have: your spouse hit you, or perpetrate a deep emotional betrayel against you? Apparently you’d opt for the latter. And that’s perfectly valid. But I’m pretty sure that there are some that would opt for the former. And that’s valid too.

98

Test both partners.:

i would go for that <G>

99

That doesn’t follow at all, malice is in the act not the consequences. But I still maintain that acts one and three, although very different, are equally malicious and have equally terrible consequences, even if the victim in three doesn’t realise what has been done to him.

It’s a shockingly large figure, but has presumably been obtained from scientific results, not surveys where people can lie. People do have affairs.

I’m certainly not minimising anything, the point is to emphasise how bad paternity fraud within marriage is. Personally if I had to choose which to be the victim of I would take the physical abuse.

Now it took a long time for domestic abuse to be recognised for the evil act that it is, hopefully in time society will do the same for paternity fraud.

It’s not something that you can prove mathematically, it’s always going to be a matter of opinion, and mine is that both are more or less equally bad.

A fine list, you’ve obviously been giving this one some thought. I don’t agree with all of it but I’m going to leave it alone here because it’s worthy of a thread of its own.

100

Polygraphs are far more fuzzy and “subject to interpretation” than dna matching. Geez Mangeorge you’re the last person I would expect to hop on that bandwagon. Am I missing the sarcasm?