Should my aunt have sent an e-mail on Shabbat?

[Big_Kahuna_Burger]

In short, Jews are required to keep the 613 commandments, whereas non-Jews are only required to keep seven

What are the seven for non-Jews?

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by Big Kahuna Burger *
**

What are the seven for non-Jews? **

Somehow, I just knew that was going to be the next question…

1. Prohibition against idolatry
2. Prohibition against forbidden sexual unions
3. Prohibition against murder
4. Prohibition against eating the flesh of a living animal (i.e. you’ve got to kill it first)
5. Prohibition against blasphemy
6. Prohibition against theft
7. Commandment to build & organize courts of law and live as a civilized society.

Zev Steinhardt

[Guinastasia]

Are you allowed to use a car if it’s an emergency? Like someone’s house is on fire, or someone needs to go to the hospital?

(I hope I’m not insulting someone)

[Neptune]

Maybe these should go into a new thread?

Am I to understand that it’s okay to turn on a light before the Shabbat, and leave it on during the Shabbat. This is not considered “using” the electricity? This is because the use is passive rather active?

I take it that using a phone would be forbidden, yes?

In that case, is it okay to make a call on a speaker phone before the Shabbat, and then leave it on, so that people can talk to one another? Would that be passive enough?

Could the family set up something like a NetMeeting call over the Internet with a microphone input, and then leave it running over the Shabbat?

On a another track, is it conceivable that in the future there could be a source of power that would not be considered equal to fire? Let’s say that tomorrow some brilliant scientist invented gollitronics, which can do everything electricity can do, but isn’t electricity. Or has it been decided that “fire” equals “power source”?

Is it conceivable that the Rabbis would ever change their minds and decide that electricity isn’t fire after all?

[sqweels]

Zev:

The relevance of my question to the OP is pretty straightforward: Is it really a rule or isn’t it? We’re supposed to be fighting ignorance here.

I did not “bash” religion, I asked a question. Whenever these kinds of questions are asked, the religious always cop out and set up a smokescreen by hurling accusations.

Religious conservatives go on about how they believe in “absolute truth”–as opposed to “relativism”–and yet ruling out any questioning of any religion is hardly in keeping with this principle.

[Telemark]

sqweels, the analogy would be that during a discussion of wedding customs in Bolivia you make a dispariging comment on courtship rituals in Albania.

Is what a rule? We were discussing rules about the Jewish Sabbath, not Moslem dress codes for women. Why is that relevant? No one was making a case for, against, or anything about Moslem dress codes, why did you wish to bring it up here? I don’t think anyone would mind if you wanted to discuss it in a different note.

[Zakalwe]

sqweels
The relevance of your question to the OP is pretty straightforward on what planet?

OP:

So, should she have sent us the e-mail, saving our computer from performing poorly, on Shabbat?

Your first question:

But it is OK for women to leave the house without being covered from head to foot, eh?

gobear’s response:

Squeels, dude, we’re talking about Judaism, which has no tradition of purdah. And even in Islam, not every country requires its women to be fully veiled. Egypt, from what I understand, does not require it, and Egypt is the home of the most authoritative Islamic scholars at Al Azhar University in Cairo.

Your counter:

But aren’t we talking about what God expects people to do?
<snip>
Nobody believes that God has different rules for different groups of people.

The answer to your question is that no, we aren’t. We’re talking about Judaic Law as it is applied to Jews. Zev responded to your assertion pretty clearly here:

Actually, you’re wrong here. Jews believe that there are different rules for Jews and non-Jews. In short, Jews are required to keep the 613 commandments, whereas non-Jews are only required to keep seven.

Perhaps your comments would be better placed in one of the threads devoted to discussing the existence of God in general terms.

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by Guinastasia *
**Are you allowed to use a car if it’s an emergency? Like someone’s house is on fire, or someone needs to go to the hospital?

(I hope I’m not insulting someone) **

Not insulting at all.

Generally speaking, when a life is in danger, all prohibitions except the “big 3” (idolatry, murder, forbidden sexual unions) go out the window, so to speak. So, you certainly can call 911 on Shabbos, you can drive to the hospital in a life threatening situation (as Knighted Vorpal Sword did, and as I did [actually, I rode in a car service car] on a holiday [which has similar rules regarding the use of fire]), etc.

Zev Steinhardt

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by Neptune *
**Maybe these should go into a new thread?

Am I to understand that it’s okay to turn on a light before the Shabbat, and leave it on during the Shabbat. This is not considered “using” the electricity? This is because the use is passive rather active?

**

Pretty much. It’s akin to a situation where a fire was left burning in our fireplaces and we simply left it alone.

**
I take it that using a phone would be forbidden, yes?

**

Yup.

**
In that case, is it okay to make a call on a speaker phone before the Shabbat, and then leave it on, so that people can talk to one another? Would that be passive enough?

**

Don’t know. I don’t know enough about how speaker phones work (do they use extra electricity when one speaks as opposed to when they sit there passively?). In any event, even if “technically OK,” it still pretty much violates the spirit of Shabbos.

**
Could the family set up something like a NetMeeting call over the Internet with a microphone input, and then leave it running over the Shabbat?

**

Probably the same answer as above.

**

On a another track, is it conceivable that in the future there could be a source of power that would not be considered equal to fire? Let’s say that tomorrow some brilliant scientist invented gollitronics, which can do everything electricity can do, but isn’t electricity. Or has it been decided that “fire” equals “power source”?

**

It’s possible that some new power source might not be considered a form of “fire.” How the determination would be made, I don’t know.

**
Is it conceivable that the Rabbis would ever change their minds and decide that electricity isn’t fire after all? **

No. It’s something that’s universally accepted among Orthodox Jews today and it’s doubtful that the ruling would ever be reversed.

Zev Steinhardt

[SuaSponte]

*Originally posted by sqweels *
The relevance of my question to the OP is pretty straightforward: Is it really a rule or isn’t it? We’re supposed to be fighting ignorance here.
I did not “bash” religion, I asked a question.

Then correct my ignorance, sqweels, I’ve obviously missed a few lessons on punctuation:

In the context of your question, what exactly did the rolleyes smilie mean?
Ya see, I think it means that you were being sarcastic and that you really weren’t asking a question at all, but instead you were being a Jerk and trying to bash Judaism.
But you assert that you were merely asking a question in all earnestness.
Correct my ignorance - why did you add the rolleyes smilie and what does it mean?

Whenever these kinds of questions are asked, the religious always cop out and set up a smokescreen by hurling accusations.

You caught me. I am a deeply observant religious conservative.
:rolleyes:

Sua

P.S. in case there is lingering confusion, my rolleyes was intended to indicate sarcasm.

[IzzyR]

…to whom it may concern:

It is Erev Tisha B’Av after Chatzos

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by sqweels *
**Zev:

I did not “bash” religion, I asked a question.

**

Firstly, your “question” had nothing to do with Judaism (which is what this thread is discussing).

Secondly, your question did not address the OP or any of the responses before it.

**
Whenever these kinds of questions are asked, the religious always cop out and set up a smokescreen by hurling accusations.

**

I didn’t hurl an accusation, and I didn’t set up a smokescreen. If you want to ask a similar question in another thread (where it won’t be soooo out of context) then by all means do so. Let me know about it and I’ll answer to the best of my ability. I’m not “copping out.”

**
Religious conservatives go on about how they believe in “absolute truth”–as opposed to “relativism”–and yet ruling out any questioning of any religion is hardly in keeping with this principle. **

No one said you can’t question (The OP certainly did and about 10 other people have also asked questions) and you don’t see us castigating them. At least their questions were sincere and on-topic. Was yours?

Zev Steinhardt

[cmkeller]

Don’t know. I don’t know enough about how speaker phones work (do they use extra electricity when one speaks as opposed to when they sit there passively?).

I believe that such an arrangement with a telephone or NetMeeting would indeed be a problem. First of all, a telephone (or microphone, or similar) converts sound to electrical impulses when someone makes a sound into it. Therefore, it would not be like leaving a light on, but rather, every time you speak into it, it would be the equivalent of flipping a swicth and creating more electricity. Second of all, there is the issue of Masmia Kol - instruments that generate sound are muktzeh.

Chaim Mattis Keller

[cmkeller]

Oops, you’re right, Izzy. Okay, I’ll revisit this thread Friday afternoon.

Chaim Mattis Keller

[Tamerlane]

*Originally posted by zev_steinhardt *
Generally speaking, when a life is in danger, all prohibitions except the “big 3” (idolatry, murder, forbidden sexual unions) go out the window, so to speak.

I know some branches of Islam ( some branches of Shi’ism in particular ) make allowances for dissembling about your faith if they are under threat of religious persecution ( this was usually cast in terms of Sunni oppression of minority Shi’ites ). Does Jewish law allow for this option as well? Including false conversions as a tactic of survival?( I seem to recall this has happened historically, but I can’t remember if it was an instance of Jewish communities preemptively pretending to convert on their own initiative or whether it was just some sovereign forcing a conversion that was later recanted )

If so would that violate the prohibition against idolatry ( assuming the faith they “converted to” included idolatrous worship )? Or since it was a faked conversion would it be considered a non-issue?

Thanks :).

• Tamerlane

[Tenar]

*Originally posted by coffeecat *
**But is a BLT kosher if it came out of a replicator, and has never been anywhere near an actual pig? **

IANAJ (or a resident of the 23rd century), but I am an amateur student of Judaism, and I seem to recall reading something about faux pork products being, if not treyf, then at least a very bad idea. The explanation I read suggested that the consumption of something which LOOKED like pork by an observant Jew could cause misunderstanding and lead people astray.

Or something like that.

Am I totally off track?

[sqweels]

This is the Straight Dope, not some religious website, and this is Great Debates. We try to get to the bottom of things here.

We are discussing a set of rules which are highly questionable, so I’m questioning them. And I’m questioning them in the light of another highly questionable set of rules.

These questions never get answered because their adherents always stonewall with their defense mechanisms.

[MsRobyn]

*Originally posted by sqweels *
**This is the Straight Dope, not some religious website, and this is Great Debates. We try to get to the bottom of things here.

We are discussing a set of rules which are highly questionable, so I’m questioning them. And I’m questioning them in the light of another highly questionable set of rules.

These questions never get answered because their adherents always stonewall with their defense mechanisms. **

Sqweels, your questions were not relevant to this thread. We’re discussing rules specific to Judaism, not questioning any rules of any religion.

We’re not stonewalling because there’s nothing to stonewall.

Robin

[SuaSponte]

*Originally posted by sqweels *
**This is the Straight Dope, not some religious website, and this is Great Debates. We try to get to the bottom of things here.

We are discussing a set of rules which are highly questionable, so I’m questioning them. And I’m questioning them in the light of another highly questionable set of rules.

These questions never get answered because their adherents always stonewall with their defense mechanisms. **

What are you smoking, Sqweels?

1. We are not discussing a set of rules which are “highly questionable.” To those who adhere to them, there isn’t a question. To those who don’t adhere to them, there isn’t a question.

2. Who is stonewalling you? You’ve asked three questions.

"But it is OK for women to leave the house without being covered from head to foot, eh? :rolleyes: "
Gobear answered that question for you.

“But aren’t we talking about what God expects people to do?”

That has also been answered - we are not. Instead, we are talking about what observant Jews believe that God wants them to do.

“Nobody believes that God has different rules for different groups of people. They can’t all be right but the can all be wrong. What is an objective observer to conclude upon reviewing all the contradictions–and all the fastidiousness–of the various religions?”

This has also been answered. Jews indeed believe that God has different - and considerably more onerous - rules for Jews than for everyone else in the world.

So, who, exactly, is stonewalling you?

Sua

[tracer]

zev_steinhardt wrote:

Originally posted by MsRobyn
**Idiotic question.

I know it’s permissible to have a brit milah on Shabbos.**

Minor nitpick: You can have a bris on Shabbos, but only if it’s the eigth day.

No no no, she wasn’t asking if she could have a bris, she was asking if she could have a brit. Hmmm … well, we all know that sex is encouraged during Shabbos, and the British were quite helpful during World War 2 and all, but don’tcha think that’s carrying gratitude a little too far?

<ducking and running>