Should non-believers take time off for holidays?

In My Humble Opinion
21

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Which part sounds illegal and why? I was annoyed that the JW’s got off, but I never decided if a legal discrimination case could be made. They never asked what religion I was, but they knew I was not a JW (because I’d casually ask questions about their religion to learn about it). As it happened, I was unaffiliated at the time, but did have family Christmas with Catholic and Lutheran family which I couldn’t attend because of work.

I had no employee complaints with how I handled it. Well, other than “Why the hell are we open on Christmas anyway?” To which I would point to the line of customers at the register, each with a huge stack of tapes for the kiddies, one for the guys in the den and a chick flick for the women when they were done cooking. Y’know, so all the relatives wouldn’t have to actually *talk *to each other. Not to mention the REALLY last minute giftcard sales. My revenue tripled on Christmas and New Year’s, even with shorter open hours. (And three out of four customers would get to the register and say, “Man! I can’t *believe *you guys have to be here on Christmas!” before plunking down $35.21 for crap. :dubious: If looks could kill, my friend, if looks could kill…)

I knew many of my employees’ religions because we were friendly folks who talked about stuff to dull the monotony of working in a video store. It was not asked at the interview, nor did it have any bearing on their hire or employment. If anyone was out of town for Christmas, that would be worked around, but they were sure as heck workin’ New Year’s Eve! (And yes, it was made clear at all interviews that we are open 365 and you will be expected to work a shift on the holidays. Anyone who couldn’t agree to that would not be hired - not for religious reasons, but scheduling ones, which is not a protected class.)

If I were to armchair lawyer it, I’d say that, in Illinois anyway, giving people their religious holidays off would likely fall under Reasonable Accommodation: “Reasonable accommodation is also a requirement if necessitated by a person’s religion. An example of reasonable accommodation of a person’s religious practice may be more frequent breaks for someone who is required to pray at specified intervals throughout the day.” As long as I was able to maintain staffing without the devout Christians working Christmas, I felt obligated, ethically and legally, to do so. I also (to bring it back to the OP) felt personally obligated to work at least one of those shifts, as it wasn’t *my *religious holiday.

Obviously, there was a lot of individual discretion on these matters. Different managers handled it very differently. I, of course, think I did it the best way (or I would have done it some other way.)
[/QUOTE]

I was referring to whether or not they asked you. I mean, you could just SAY you’re a jew or JW or what have you and they pretty much have to accommodate you, right? But the fact that only the JWs were allowed to be off, leaving the two of you to cover it all the time, that seems discriminatory to me. Once in a while, I could see…but not every single year.

22

None of those are “religous” holidays. Although our most commonly practiced Solstice holiday in the USA is “CHristmas”, Christmas is more or less (as DtC said) a secular holiday, with Santa Claus, Rudolph, Frosty, and such like. Don’t like it being Xmas, then call it Solstice, Kwanzaa, Sol Invictus, Saturnalia, or whatever.

However, many companies give you so many holidays a year, and as long as the business itself isn’t closed (assuming you can’t work at home), they will often allow you to take one rather than the other.

IF the whole idea of Xmas and even Solstice offends you, see if you can take an alternate day.

23

I want a non-sectarian holiday to substitute for xmas. Can be on the same day as long as it has a humanistic name. Like Darwin Day.

24

Many large companies have some kind of “floating holiday” policy (also known as “Personal Days” in constrast to “Vacation Days”) to accomodate individual “holy day” observations that are not already part of the institutional holiday calendar. I myself get three of these a year.

The Jewish High Holy days are one example of their intended use. Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur see a lot of people out of the office where I work, and increasingly so does Chinese New Year.

Of course one can use these “Personal Days” exactly as Vacation Days if that’s what you want; it’s not like you have to provide some kind of proof of going to Temple or leftover dumplings or anything like that.

I once worked with a Wiccan who lobbied management to “exchange” taking off Halloween with working on Christmas Day. He was in a software development role so even though the building was closed he could have in theory worked from home. I don’t know if he was accomodated. (That firm did not have a “Personal Day” policy, which just highlights how useful it is for a firm to have one.)

25

Regarding Christmas as a secular holiday…it isn’t. I don’t have a quibble with anyone who wants to celebrate it in a secular way, as our society has turned it into a holiday for everyone. However, I have to take issue with what Diogenes says here:
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
If you want to afford it some religious significance, that’s up to you, but I don’t see what belief has to do with anything.
[/QUOTE]
I would say the reverse…if you DON’T want to afford it religious significance, that’s up to you, but it IS a religiously meaningful holiday, and belief in the birth of Christ is rather central to the meaning.

I would never presume to co-opt someone else’s holiday, and then state that belief has nothing to do with it. That’s pretty insulting to the people who celebrate the meaning of the holiday. The least you could do is respect that belief.

26

I take some, but not all, of the more religiously-oriented holidays off because my loved ones gather at those times to spend time with each other and I’d like to be with them, regardless of my personal belief structure.

The ones where my family doesn’t gather together, I work if the office is open. For the major ones (Christmas, for example) the office is basically closed. There are a few souls here taking advantage of the double-time-and-a-half pay, but nobody expects anyone to be in the office on days when we’re closed.

My boss observes all the Jewish holidays - and if he’s not in, there’s rarely any reason for me to be in. I still come in (not being Jewish myself), and he appreciates having someone to explain to the clients who don’t already know where he is and to hold the fort and deflect people who might otherwise be inclined to try to call him at home.

The thing is, for people with large families, a fair number of religiously-oriented holidays are automatic days off for most people - making them exceptionally handy for getting together with people who live a little farther than is convenient for ordinary family get togethers. Also, when you have a bunch of adult people trying to coordinate a get-together, having a day when you know none of them have to work is a wonderful thing - regardless of anyone’s religious convictions. In my family, we have a few retired people (who don’t count for purposes of scheduling big gatherings), several people working more than one job, a couple of teachers/student teachers, a professional athlete, assorted 9-5ers, a federal airport employee on rotating shifts, a postal worker, several students, and a few independent contractors. Finding a time we can all get together is essentially impossible unless someone dies, gets married, or it’s a federal holiday - and the federal holidays most likely to be automatic holidays are at least theoretically religiously-oriented.

27

[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
Regarding Christmas as a secular holiday…it isn’t. I don’t have a quibble with anyone who wants to celebrate it in a secular way, as our society has turned it into a holiday for everyone. However, I have to take issue with what Diogenes says here: I would say the reverse…if you DON’T want to afford it religious significance, that’s up to you, but it IS a religiously meaningful holiday, and belief in the birth of Christ is rather central to the meaning.

I would never presume to co-opt someone else’s holiday, and then state that belief has nothing to do with it. That’s pretty insulting to the people who celebrate the meaning of the holiday. The least you could do is respect that belief.
[/QUOTE]

Christmas existed before Christianity and Christians do not own it. They hijacked it for their own purposes and have afforded it particular a religious significance which it never originally had but that doesn’t mean it’s their holiday. Any attribution of religious significance is a personal choice, not the actual reason for the holiday (which is rooted in pagan celebrations of the winter solstice).

28

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Christmas existed before Christianity and Christians do not own it. They hijacked it for their own purposes and have afforded it particular a religious significance which it never originally had but that doesn’t mean it’s their holiday. Any attribution of religious significance is a personal choice, not the actual reason for the holiday (which is rooted in pagan celebrations of the winter solstice).
[/QUOTE]

And which actual pagans (neopagans, anyway) celebrate at the Winter Solstice, Dec 21st. Ish. Or the Friday or Saturday closest. Unless the big coven in town is doing theirs that day, in which case maybe we should make it the next weekend?

Saying that Christians “hijacked” Solstice 1500+ years ago and that therefore what Sarafina and her church celebrate on December 25th isn’t “religious” is just bizarre. Of course it’s religious. They go to their church, they pray, they listen to stories from the holiest book, and the spend at least some of the day thinking a whole lot about the central figure of their religion. What’s not religious about that?

I’ll grant you that there’s another holiday that also falls on Dec. 25 that bears the same name, but is entirely secular. That’s the “Christmas” that I celebrate with my family every year. Nary a Jesus in sight, but if I don’t show up at dinner without a damn good reason, Grandma will have some choice words for this pagan.

The Christian Christmas was present* in this country* long before the secular Christmas.

29

Well, my company is shut down between Christmas and New Years, so it is more of a winter holiday than a religious one. It’s beneficial to shut everything off and save money.

However, if I worked for a company that did have to stay open Christmas, and wasn’t married to someone who celebrated it, I would definitely volunteer to come in that day. Not out of protest or anything like that - it’s just the atheist thing to do. :slight_smile: When I was single, and in grad school, I did go to the office on Christmas, just to be ornery. No one cared one way or another.

30

I don’t care if it’s Christmas, Kwanza, Jewish Halloween or The Hamburgler’s Birthday. If it’s a day off from work, I’ma takin it.

31

What WhyNot said! I would add the following:

If you are celebrating another holiday that you believe Christians hijacked, then that, too is your perogative. But, as WhyNot points out, this is a pagan holiday, is not “secular” in nature, and is not referred to as “Christmas.” Christians only “hijacked” the general time of year, and maybe some of the peripheral customs. Which, incidentally, are generally not considered “religious” by religious Christians. Christmas trees are not religious in nature.

If, on the other hand, you are taking the day off to hang out with family, exchange presents, eat a big dinner, sing jingle bells, and otherwise celebrate what we consider a “secular” Christmas, then you are, in turn, hijacking someone’s holiday, and should at the very least acknowledge that, rather than implying that it was an American secular holiday first, that the Christians just decided to make religious.

32

[QUOTE=erie774]
If someone is believes the first settlers in America were genocidal, oppressive imperialists…
[/QUOTE]
You say that like it’s a bad thing! It’s the way of the world, it’s how things have always been done on every continent. Except for Australia. I have no idea what the Aborigonies were up to before we taught them the marvels of vegemite. The Native Americans that were done wrong were not members of one big free-love commune. The previous masters of North America were every bit as savage and self-interested as their Eropean/Asian/African counterparts. They couldn’t compete and they got slammed. As societies go, they had it coming to them, just as we have it coming to us.

And hell yeah I’m taking a day off when it’s offered, even if it’s KKK day. Non-vets get to take Veteran’s Day off so I figure getting Christmas is just a little bit of quid pro quo action. If I am actually offended by the reason for the season, I’ll use that day off to illuminate my reasons for believing that way–when everyone else isn’t distracted by their work.

33

A friend of mine works in an office that has no problems getting on-call coverage for Christmas and Easter, but has a hell of a time getting it for the High Holidays and Samhain; the staff is all Jewish or one of the flavors of pagan that cares about Hallowe’en.

My boyfriend, on the other hand, is required by his job to not only take Christmas off, but the week between Christmas and New Year’s. He doesn’t have religious significance for anything around that time (as he’s a Celtic pagan and thus does not even have a solstice holiday) and mostly considers it a stupid aggravation.

Me, I don’t have problems with the concept of working on ‘standard’ holidays if I’m scheduled for them, but I’m not gonna work when I’m not scheduled.

34

[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
Regarding Christmas as a secular holiday…it isn’t. I don’t have a quibble with anyone who wants to celebrate it in a secular way, as our society has turned it into a holiday for everyone. However, I have to take issue with what Diogenes says here: I would say the reverse…if you DON’T want to afford it religious significance, that’s up to you, but it IS a religiously meaningful holiday, and belief in the birth of Christ is rather central to the meaning.

.
[/QUOTE]

Certainly “belief in the birth of Christ is rather central” to many dudes who celebrate Xmas. But not to those who celebrate other faith’s holidays on or about the same day. Nor is it to the mass of celebrators: although I guess one can say they are “worshipping the almighty consumer dollar”- few actually pray to Frosty, Rudolph or Santa Claus.* This is the holiday WhyNot refers to: “I’ll grant you that there’s another holiday that also falls on Dec. 25 that bears the same name, but is entirely secular. That’s the “Christmas” that I celebrate with my family every year. Nary a Jesus in sight…”.

Basicly, in America- we have TWO holidays named “Christmas” that overlap: a mostly religous holiday, with a creche, Baby Jesus and so forth, and a mostly secular holiday with Frosty, Rudolph and Santa Claus. One could call the secular hiloday “Yule” if you prefer, of course that’s a pagan name.

  • and yes I know- Santa Claus does have a root in a Xtian saint. But the “jolly elf” the “fat man” the “sliegh rider with 8 reindeer”, etc. is not Xtian at all.

Christmas did not hijack any Holiday. Sol Invictus was celebrated on the Solstice, and Saturnalia around the same time. Sure, they are pretty close, and perhaps that’s one of the reasons the early Church Fathers picked Dec 25th from amoung the several “calculated” birthdays for Jesus. But indeed, a early Church Theologian *did * calculate Dec 25th- without any regards for Saturnalia, Sol Invictus or etc. Of course, he was likely wrong, but that doesn’t disporve his sincerity in calculating that date.

35

We celebrate “the holidays” They start with Thanksgiving (Halloween for the kids) and move through with the velocity of a freight train through the Super Bowl. In there fits a secular Christmas (the Super Bowl - I have yet to figure out exactly what a forth down penalty kick is - but I go to SuperBowl parties - where I Tivo and watch the good commercials and eat without watching the game - some people watch the game, and some of us chat. Doesn’t mean we dont call it a Superbowl party)

My company makes us take Christmas to New Years off every year - using vacation time or taking it unpaid. I like to work those days - its slow and easy - but don’t have the choice. There is an ongoing fight in the ops team to be the “person on call” since that person doesn’t have to take vacation days and has to come to work for about two hours over the whole week. Days off on someone elses schedule are not the boon the OP thinks they are.

36

Sheesh! Next thing you know, they’ll expect me to be sick on my sick days! :wink:

37

I’m another one who has no choice in the matter. I work for an orthodox Jewish fellow who shuts down the business on every single one of the Jewish holy days. Nobody is permitted to work, even tradesmen doing repairs on the building are refused entry during those times.

We also shut down forabout a week over Easter, and two weeks over the Christmas/New Year period,: I think the boss would like to continue business over this time, but it’s summer hols here in Aus, and it’s really doubtful whether opening would be cost-effective.

The upshot is that we don’t get paid for any of this time off.

38

[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
What WhyNot said! I would add the following:

If you are celebrating another holiday that you believe Christians hijacked, then that, too is your perogative. But, as WhyNot points out, this is a pagan holiday, is not “secular” in nature, and is not referred to as “Christmas.” Christians only “hijacked” the general time of year, and maybe some of the peripheral customs. Which, incidentally, are generally not considered “religious” by religious Christians. Christmas trees are not religious in nature.

If, on the other hand, you are taking the day off to hang out with family, exchange presents, eat a big dinner, sing jingle bells, and otherwise celebrate what we consider a “secular” Christmas, then you are, in turn, hijacking someone’s holiday, and should at the very least acknowledge that, rather than implying that it was an American secular holiday first, that the Christians just decided to make religious.
[/QUOTE]

I’m not hijacking anything. I’m participating in popular rituals which predate Christianity and which have no reliious significance except whatever any individual wants to assign to it. I can celebrate the day as a meaningless recognition of an annual planetary event in the same way as I can celebrate the New Year and I’ll be closer to the original significance of the holiday than Christians are. The holday doesn’t “belong” to anyone. It’ just a free day off and anyone can do whatever they want with it. It’s only a Christian holiday for Christians.

I think latching onto the name “Christmas” as being in any way indicative of how people should think of the holiday is kind of specious, by the way. I don’t think anything more of that particular word than I think of “Sunday” or “Monday” as referring to a sun and a moon god.

Anyway, I’m just as apt to refer to the holiday as the “Saturnalia” or tell people “Happy solstice” as I am to say “Merry Christmas.”

39

[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
If, on the other hand, you are taking the day off to hang out with family, exchange presents, eat a big dinner, sing jingle bells, and otherwise celebrate what we consider a “secular” Christmas, then you are, in turn, hijacking someone’s holiday, and should at the very least acknowledge that, rather than implying that it was an American secular holiday first, that the Christians just decided to make religious.
[/QUOTE]

Holidays cannot be hijacked, because they cannot be “owned.” They can lose or gain meaning with the centuries.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

*Natalis Invicti. The well-known solar feast, however, of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date. For the history of the solar cult, its position in the Roman Empire, and syncretism with Mithraism, see Cumont’s epoch-making “Textes et Monuments” etc., I, ii, 4, 6, p. 355. Mommsen (Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum, 12, p. 338) has collected the evidence for the feast, which reached its climax of popularity under Aurelian in 274. Filippo del Torre in 1700 first saw its importance; it is marked, as has been said, without addition in Philocalus’ Calendar. It would be impossible here even to outline the history of solar symbolism and language as applied to God, the Messiah, and Christ in Jewish or Chrisian canonical, patristic, or devotional works. Hymns and Christmas offices abound in instances; the texts are well arranged by Cumont (op. cit., addit. Note C, p. 355)…

Conclusion. The present writer in inclined to think that, be the origin of the feast in East or West, and though the abundance of analogous midwinter festivals may indefinitely have helped the choice of the December date, the same instinct which set Natalis Invicti at the winter solstice will have sufficed, apart from deliberate adaptation or curious calculation, to set the Christian feast there too.*

The Church Fathers were wise to suggest that Christ’s birth should be celebrated near a significant date, already celebrated by many.

The inventors of Kwanzaa were smart to fill the week between Christmas & New Year’s Day with a celebration of African-American culture. It can be observed by Christians, Muslims or “none of the above.”

Merry Xmas!

40

[QUOTE=Dangerosa]
My company makes us take Christmas to New Years off every year - using vacation time or taking it unpaid. I like to work those days - its slow and easy - but don’t have the choice. There is an ongoing fight in the ops team to be the “person on call” since that person doesn’t have to take vacation days and has to come to work for about two hours over the whole week. Days off on someone elses schedule are not the boon the OP thinks they are.
[/QUOTE]

To clarify earlier comment – that’s basically my boyfriend’s situation, only I don’t think he has the option of taking it unpaid, and there isn’t a single on-call person. He was really aggravated by this when the policy change went in – on short notice, changing the terms of what could be done with his saved vacation time.