Should non-believers take time off for holidays?

In My Humble Opinion
41

[QUOTE=Bridget Burke]
Holidays cannot be hijacked, because they cannot be “owned.” They can lose or gain meaning with the centuries.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

*Natalis Invicti. The well-known solar feast, however, of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date. For the history of the solar cult, its position in the Roman Empire, and syncretism with Mithraism, see Cumont’s epoch-making “Textes et Monuments” etc., I, ii, 4, 6, p. 355. Mommsen (Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum, 12, p. 338) has collected the evidence for the feast, which reached its climax of popularity under Aurelian in 274. Filippo del Torre in 1700 first saw its importance; it is marked, as has been said, without addition in Philocalus’ Calendar. It would be impossible here even to outline the history of solar symbolism and language as applied to God, the Messiah, and Christ in Jewish or Chrisian canonical, patristic, or devotional works. Hymns and Christmas offices abound in instances; the texts are well arranged by Cumont (op. cit., addit. Note C, p. 355)…

Conclusion. The present writer in inclined to think that, be the origin of the feast in East or West, and though the abundance of analogous midwinter festivals may indefinitely have helped the choice of the December date, the same instinct which set Natalis Invicti at the winter solstice will have sufficed, apart from deliberate adaptation or curious calculation, to set the Christian feast there too.*

The Church Fathers were wise to suggest that Christ’s birth should be celebrated near a significant date, already celebrated by many.
[/QUOTE]
I am aware of all of this. I was continuing Diogenes’ use of the term “hijack.” My point was only that if one is going to claim that they are celebrating the holiday that falls on December 25 according to its original meaning, then they should do that, and not call it “Christmas.” If, on the other hand, they are celebrating the holiday that some Americans consider a secular holiday, that’s fine, too, but it’s incorrect to call it “Christmas” and claim that it the religious aspect of it is secondary. I highly doubt that the secular Christmas would have become such an important and major holiday in this country if the religious Christmas had not preceded it.

42

Everyone should be able to take off the Holidays: that’s when people of all religions come together to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ.

43

[QUOTE=Ludovic]
Everyone should be able to take off the Holidays: that’s when people of all religions come together to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ.
[/QUOTE]

I was at a holiday party last year where the owner of the company said that. His quote as I recall was, “Everyone is free to believe whatever they wish. But you should take a few minutes to reflect on how great my God is.” (That’s the closest I recall what he said)

Interestingly enough, last year was the last time the holiday party was mandatory attendance and is now voluntary and not considered to be on company time.

44

Hell no I am not going to work on December 25th because I am atheist. In fact, I take at least a whole week off of work. I celebrate with my friends and family, many of whom I do not get to see for the rest of the year. Gift giving is based on a pre-Christian Roman tradition and is the biggest reason I celebrate the holiday. Just as Christianity “borrowed” some pagan traditions for their religious fest I borrow traditions from Christianity and other religions to celebrate.

45

[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
I am aware of all of this. I was continuing Diogenes’ use of the term “hijack.” My point was only that if one is going to claim that they are celebrating the holiday that falls on December 25 according to its original meaning, then they should do that, and not call it “Christmas.” If, on the other hand, they are celebrating the holiday that some Americans consider a secular holiday, that’s fine, too, but it’s incorrect to call it “Christmas” and claim that it the religious aspect of it is secondary. I highly doubt that the secular Christmas would have become such an important and major holiday in this country if the religious Christmas had not preceded it.
[/QUOTE]

The problem is that its really difficult to communicate without calling it Christmas. My friends (few of them Christian) say “what are you doing for Christmas?” When we go out to buy our secular presents, we say “we are going Christmas shopping.” Christmas is a religious holiday, but its also a useful adjective to describe those traditional cookies you bake and eat in December and the decorations and that tree that you stick up in your house.

I suppose I could call it a holiday tree. And we could go holiday shopping and bake holiday cookies. Holiday is too generic. Santa doesn’t bring presents on “holiday” - he brings them on Christmas. Everyone knows what we are talking about when we use the word Christmas.

(And yet, when Wal-Mart tries to have an inclusive holiday season by hanging up “Happy Holidays” signs and having their greeters say “holidays” instead of Christmas - people think secularists are trying to take away Christmas. Can’t win for trying).

I doubt that the religious Christmas would be so important today (traditionally it was secondary to Easter) without all the securlar commericalism given to it by Coke, Hallmark, Rankin and Bass and the shopping mall.

Halloween gets bigger and bigger each year - not because of All Saints Day or Samhain - but because the stores and television make a bigger deal of it each year.

46

[QUOTE=Dangerosa]
The problem is that its really difficult to communicate without calling it Christmas. My friends (few of them Christian) say “what are you doing for Christmas?” When we go out to buy our secular presents, we say “we are going Christmas shopping.” Christmas is a religious holiday, but its also a useful adjective to describe those traditional cookies you bake and eat in December and the decorations and that tree that you stick up in your house.

I suppose I could call it a holiday tree. And we could go holiday shopping and bake holiday cookies. Holiday is too generic. Santa doesn’t bring presents on “holiday” - he brings them on Christmas. Everyone knows what we are talking about when we use the word Christmas.

(And yet, when Wal-Mart tries to have an inclusive holiday season by hanging up “Happy Holidays” signs and having their greeters say “holidays” instead of Christmas - people think secularists are trying to take away Christmas. Can’t win for trying).
[/QUOTE]
I see your point, but don’t you think that “holiday” (as in “the holiday season”) is pretty well understood by now? Everyone knows what is being referred to when the office has a “holiday party” in December, or sends out “holiday cards.” I never understood the idea that Christmas is being “stolen” by using the term “holiday.” To me, it makes more sense, because “holiday” covers all the possible celebrations, and you don’t end up saying the wrong thing to the wrong person!

I would never argue with that! If there wasn’t a Christmas for the marketers to exploit, there would be something else…

…like Halloween, for example.

I just want to make clear, I think it’s great that non-Christians take the day off and have a celebration. I know a Jewish family who has a big buffet on Christmas…and they are not the types to put up a “Hanukkah Bush” or anything…they just took advantage of a day off to have everyone over to eat a nice party-ish meal. Why not?

My ONLY beef was the implication by some that the religious aspect is secondary. I just don’t see how that claim can be made. Perhaps in our culture it has been MADE secondary, but that is different from the holiday being secular in nature.

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I should also clarify that I don’t have a problem with a non-Christian calling it “Christmas” if they want to…it’s just doubly confusing to then say that it’s not a Christian holiday!

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The reality is that the word “Christmas” is kind of like “Kleenex” it’s now a generic term. I can wish someone a Merry Christmas but it means “happy holidays” and is understood widely to be a generic greeting that does not necessarily hold religious significance by the person extending the greeting or to the recipient. I actually prefer to say “Happy Holidays” just to see the looks of shock and dismay.

49

I work for the university, so any university holidays (I think we get two a quarter) we are off. Then, of course, we are closed over Christmas break. That means I get these days off (actually, it’s a month off) but that doesn’t count as a real job because I don’t work a lot.

Mrs. Small gets holidays off with pay, or she can work them at double time and a half. She and I have Christmas dinner (well, family dinner, we aren’t “believers”) with her family on Christmas Eve, drive back down here so she can work Christmas day, and then go see my family on the 26th. Her reasoning is that a bit of double time and a half wouldn’t hurt the ol’ paycheck and a lot of her co-workers have family stuff on that day. Some even have kids who they are trying to make Christmas special for, so there is no reason for us not to schedule around the holidays to make it easier on everyone…

Brendon

50

>How about you? Do you think non-believers should get days off for things they don’t believe in?

Devout athiest checking in. I don’t believe the religious stuff but I sure believe in Christmas as the major cultural holiday in my native US, and I believe all the kids and grandkids have time off, and I believe we’ll have oyster stew on Christmas Eve together. Which belief trumps which? By the way, I helped make my employer profitable, and they are happy to give me vacation.

51

>How about you? Do you think non-believers should get days off for things they don’t believe in?

What I do or don’t believe in is my business, and nobody elses. I believe that’s everybody elses right as well. But whether I’m devout or an atheist, I object to someone subjectively coming up to me to say “everybody else has the day off and the office will be closed, but you don’t because you don’t believe in Imhotep-Day”. No employer has the right to say that.

“Yes, Virginia, there Is an ACLU! It exists certainly as love and generosity and The Bill of Rights exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy!” :smiley:

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[QUOTE=erie774]
If someone does not support what he stood for, should they take Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. Day off?
[/QUOTE]

Well, I don’t particularly think that MLK deserves a holiday named for him. The man was an adulterer. Moreover, a commission of inquiry at Boston University, where he got his doctorate, concluded that he plagiarized his dissertation. I’d be happier if the holiday were named Black History Day, Harriet Tubman Day or Frederick Douglass Day. Maybe Tuskegee Airmen Day. But whatever it’s called, I take it off. Have to; my place of employment is closed.

53

What exactly is working on my day off supposed to prove, and who is it supposed to benefit? The whole company is shut down, and I’m supposed to show up and do what? Is that supposed to give people a good impression of atheism or just show that I’m nuts?

54

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Which part sounds illegal and why? I was annoyed that the JW’s got off, but I never decided if a legal discrimination case could be made. They never asked what religion I was, but they knew I was not a JW (because I’d casually ask questions about their religion to learn about it). As it happened, I was unaffiliated at the time, but did have family Christmas with Catholic and Lutheran family which I couldn’t attend because of work.
[/QUOTE]

Wait-I thought JWs didn’t celebrate Christmas? Or am I thinking of something else?

55

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
The reality is that the word “Christmas” is kind of like “Kleenex” it’s now a generic term. I can wish someone a Merry Christmas but it means “happy holidays” and is understood widely to be a generic greeting that does not necessarily hold religious significance by the person extending the greeting or to the recipient. I actually prefer to say “Happy Holidays” just to see the looks of shock and dismay.
[/QUOTE]

To me, a devout atheistic Jew, I don’t see “Merry Christmas” as generic and devoid of religious meaning.

I can see why someone may think it’s generic, but I don’t feel that way at all. It feels specific to Christmas and is assuming I am celebrating Christmas, per se, not just any old winter holiday. I smile at the good intentions of people who wish me a Merry Christmas, and almost never say anything back (such as “oh, I don’t celebrate Christmas”) to random store clerks etc. I might say that to a colleague or acquaintance.
Honestly though, I would rather not be wished Merry Christmas.
It drives me insane the religous right who feel that employees saying “Happy Holidays” is going to make anyone forget it’s Christmas.

56

[QUOTE=FatBaldGuy]
I think in this case what you believe or don’t believe is irrelevant. If an employer gives a day off with pay for Christmas, Yom Kippur or Peanut Butter Sandwich Day, that is a benefit to which you are entitled.

Just because you don’t agree with the reason for the day off doesn’t mean that you can’t use that day to be with your family and do other things that have no relation to the holiday.
[/QUOTE]

I worked for a traditionally Jewish law firm where about half the attorneys were Jewish. We got Christmas off, but not any of the Jewish holidays. Jewish lawyers usually did take time off for Yom Kippur, etc., (and could do so without using up “vacation days” because we had a lax policy on that), but also took Christmas off too.

The predominantly Jewish Governance Committee simply wanted us to have the usual holidays off, like everyone else, regardless of our religion. Our clients were working on the Jewish holidays, so the office didn’t close. Our clients weren’t working on Christmas, so we didn’t either. Clearly, their decision about which days to close the office was not guided by what religious beliefs they thought their employees had or would practice.

And IME, that’s how most employers look at it.

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[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
Wait-I thought JWs didn’t celebrate Christmas? Or am I thinking of something else?
[/QUOTE]

No, you’re right. Or, rather, they’re not supposed to “celebrate” anything at all, until they’re in heaven with Jesus. No birthdays, no holidays, nothing.

Which is why I was so perplexed. Really, we were none of us celebrants of the religious Christmas, and I and the Jewish guy were the only ones technically allowed to celebrate even the secular Christmas, and so why were we working again? I was transfered to the other store before it became a dealbreaker, but there were a couple of years of grr there for me.

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[QUOTE=erie774]
Geez, I just reread my OP and realized that I probably came across as some jingoistic, redneck, Bible-thumping lunatic.
Let me clarify. I don’t think non-Christians are going to burn in Hell. I think racism is the refuge of the ignorant. I don’t think people opposed to American policies should shut up or leave the country.
[/QUOTE]

You’re too hard on yourself. It’s a legitimate question, but I know the feeling of having been less-than-clear in a communication seen by the teeming millions.

[QUOTE=erie774]
I believe that people should stand behind their beliefs and not just pay lip-service to them. You oppose the violence and military action? Great! Protest, write letters, make your opinion known! But don’t take off a day meant to celebrate and honor men and women who have died in military conflicts in support of America.
[/QUOTE]

Why not? I vehemently opposed the war in Iraq from the beginning, but I just as vehemently supported the war in Afghanistan. And I respect and admire the men and women who went to Iraq because their idiotic president sent them. I honor the sacrifice they made even while I seethe that their lives were squandered by a goofball in the White House. I ache for the loved ones they left behind; I mourn for the deaths of the fine young men and women killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia and Vietnam, in wars justified and unjustified. And I take Memorial Day off and attend the ceremonies because I, too, once wore a uniform and stood ready to fight under my country’s flag; I would have gone where ordered and done as ordered without ever questioning it because that is the oath I took. My honoring of the men and women who sacrificed limbs, eyesight, and lives at their country’s behest has nothing to do with the utter contempt I have for the nimrod who sent them into harm’s way.

On the other hand, if George W. Bush’s birthday were ever declared a national holiday, I would work like a rented mule on that day because it would be the only way I could block out the rage I feel when the man’s name is mentioned.