I get that. And true, you didn’t actually say “it only matter what impression is made.” That was my own interpretation.
What you *did *say of jayjay’s pointed observation of the relevant facts that would vindicate Obama’s decision was “it’s immaterial”, which I think is unfair and untrue (and also a band I used to listen to back in the late 80s).
I don’t think those are unreasonable questions to ask, as long as people are willing to consider the responses to those questions.
In this particular case, of which I still have some concerns, I can see that there are elements that justify the decision.
What is needed is more consideration and highlighting of facts and individual circumstances, not resignation to a style-based political system.
It no longer matters if people are inclined to support him or not. He isn’t running for office. He is an (extra)ordinary private citizen. If people who might have been inclined to support him before this but have now chosen not to support him, why would that matter?
This is a silly concern. What you are asking of Obama is to act like a saint for the sake of “PR.” You are asking him to never do anything that might prod the media to “just ask questions.” The man has been accused of not being American. Of not being christian. There have been so many lies and untruths said about him why on earth would “PR” become an issue he worries about now?
Honest question: is this your belief? Do you think he is sleeping with the enemy? Or are you only concerned that it “looks like” he is sleeping with the enemy?
I don’t see how this works. Trump is President of the United States of America. His cabinet is full of people from Wall Street. Trump is cosy with Wall Street. Trump loves Wall Street, he embraces Wall Street, and he is currently the most powerful person in the world. So it appears “engaging in time-honored traditions of K-Street and Wall Street” gains influence on Main Street.
But Obama is a private citizen. He isn’t running for office. He isn’t being paid to either gain nor loose influence on Main Street. He has done more than his fair share of civic duty. More than you or I will ever do in our lifetimes. So I’m not even sure why what you say is relevant.
This is what you are not getting. Obama doesn’t represent jack shit. He is a private citizen. He can do what he fucking likes. He isn’t a superhero. He isn’t a god. He isn’t your toy. He has served his country at the highest levels with distinction. He doesn’t owe you anything. If he represents something to you: that is because you have projected it on him.
The United States of America elected quite possible the stupidest man alive to be President of their country in 2016. I’m pretty sure that Obama understands the stakes more than anyone else. What you don’t seem to have realised is that the country is “not at risk” of lurching to the hard right: it is already there. If this concerns you then you should be putting your energy into changing that, and not worrying about the “optics” of what a private citizen decides to do on his own damn time.
Obama isn’t up for election. You perhaps want to be talking to the leadership of the Democrats, and not a guy who no longer holds power.
Because its fucking normal. Being paid market rates to be a public speaker in your area of expertise in not controversial. It was normal when Bill Clinton did it. It was normal when the Bushes did it. Why is it suddenly not normal when the black man does it?
Have you looked at what some spokespeople from the black community are saying about this? They are angry. The statements from Bernie, from Warren, have made a lot of people angry. If the goal is to get Trump out of office, then marginalising the group of people who overwhelmingly supported you at the last election seems like a pretty dumb thing to do.
It comes down to what sort of former president does Barack Obama want to be, and what influence he wants to have. If he wants to be a private citizen and stay out of the spotlight, then that’s fine. But if he wants to remain consequential, he ought to consider these speaking engagements and his behavior in general more carefully. FTR, I’m not a Bernie Bro. But the future of the democratic party and progressive politics is going to take a hard turn to the left, and if Barack Obama simply wants to be an ex president who cashes in on the system, then he’s going to find himself ignored whenever he has something to say.
Nope, that’s not what I’m asking. Rather, I’d like to see Barack Obama remain a visible and influential force at a time when our democratic institutions are quite ostensibly under assault from a variety of forces. By cashing in on his presidency simply on the grounds that it’s what every other president has done might be legal and consistent with tradition, but it also potentially discredits someone who could be a force for good. I’m sure not all people see it that way, but again, the political trends are turning away from Obama and toward Bernie Sanders on this matter.
I didn’t realize that ethnic groups had spokespeople.
What the fuck does that mean? Its not about “wanting to be” a private citizen. He is a private citizen. But he can’t choose to be out of the spotlight, because he is the former President of the United States.
I don’t think you get to judge whether or not Obama remains consequential. I’m sure he considered this speaking engagement very carefully. And I think he made the best decision for himself and his family and I’m not going to judge him on that. Obama has always been held to a higher standard. Its the burden of being the first black president.
If a “hard turn to the left” means following down the “Bernie Path” then the Democrats will be in danger of falling apart. Bernie is no hero of the progressives.
And I find your assertion that Obama is going to “find himself ignored” because of this to be utterly laughable and unsupportable. That is simply a guess on your part, and my guess is that your assertion will be completely destroyed the next time Obama actually has something to say.
Yeah it is.
I’ve got some depressing news for you. The former President of the United States Barack Obama is not your monkey. He isn’t going to dance for you. What you want him to be and what he wants to do are two different things. It is obvious you have completely lost respect for him. I doubt he is going to be crying in his sleep over that.
If you think the democratic institutions are under assault from a variety of forces then take the fight to those variety of forces. Don’t sit back and expect a miracle from someone who owes you jack shit.
So Obama is no longer a “force for good?” Was that because he took money from the bankers? Do you have a bank account? Do you pay interest fees? Are you part of the “machine” that keeps the evil capitalist system running? Does that mean you aren’t a force for good either?
If Obama isn’t a force for good any more, does that mean he is a force for evil? Can you explain how this all works?
What part of Obama is a private citizen doing what private citizens do have you failed to understand? The political trends are turning away from Obama? Well thank fuck for that! He doesn’t hold office, he isn’t running for president, he isn’t even running for the local education board. Things shouldn’t be trending his way anyway. He has been out of office for over 100 days: if it has taken this long to start trending towards Bernie then Bernie is doing something fucking wrong.
This is a manufactured controversy. Because it isn’t controversial at all.
Perhaps if you listened to some of them you would understand the anger that is brewing towards people that hold attitudes like yours. There are white supremacists in the white house literally flashing “White Power” hand signals at the cameras. Do you think that if Obama refused this money, those white supremacists will magically disappear?
Emphasis added, and repeated because it bears repeating:
Right. The 2016 election and FWIW the congressionals during his own term could be seen as already rejections of “what he had taken 8 years to build”. Through those 8 years, his voters did not bother to show up if HE was not on the ticket, giving us Boehner and Ryan and McConnell and Cruz in power. Did the man matter more than the cause, then?
Even within the Democrats, the Party apparat *declined *to go “authentic progressive”: though giving lip service to progressivism it chose instead to reach back to 1990s DLC “centrism” as its presidential offer. If someone is going to rally the progressives back, it’s NOT going to be Obama. Heck, even Sanders has issues with supporting the “wrong kind” of liberal.
Barack Obama is no longer a public official. He will, however, always be a public figure. He spent decades in progressively more visible positions of public office. He takes a public retirement. He gets publicly-funded secret service protection. He will get his own presidential library. He sought the exposure. He got it. He will always be newsworthy in a society with one of the most liberal press freedoms (for now) in the world. Now that doesn’t mean the public has a right to stick a webcam in his bathroom and watch a live stream of him taking his morning piss – he has a right to privacy. But sorry, bro, when he steps out and takes $400,000 of Wall Street money for 90 minutes worth of work from an industry he spent 8 years regulating, people are going to notice. And I’m guessing that, unlike you, he accepted that a long time ago.
That’s all I’m gonna say. This is not a 3-page thread.
…that was a long-winded way of saying “you agree with everything I just said.”
You aren’t my bro.
And yes: when the “black man” takes coin from the “white man”, the “liberal white man” is gonna get upset. I accepted that a long time ago. Good on Obama for taking the money.
The conservatives don’t care. The black community are angry with people like you. This is an “own goal.” This is needless and pointless: this is division for the sake of division.
I’ll ask the question I asked you before. Do you think he is sleeping with the enemy? Or are you only concerned that it “looks like” he is sleeping with the enemy? Why is taking the money problematic? Why does it matter that he spent eight years trying to regulate this industry? I’m not asking why other people are noticing. I’m asking about why you have noticed.
I’ve agreed with a lot of what has been said in this thread by you and others.
I don’t see this as being an issue of race, although I can understand how African Americans might see it differently.
I am more concerned that it looks like he’s sleeping with the enemy. Obama had to deal with the most partisan congress since the end of the 19th Century - he did what he was able to do with the power he had. All things considered, he did a damn good job, but to your point, yes, it’s about appearances or “optics”. I think it matters. You and others don’t see it that way, which is fine.
…I asked you a question. Your response wasn’t an answer to my question, but a very long agreement with what I had just said. I appreciate you acknowledging that I’m right, but a simple “I agree” would have sufficed.
Do you realize how badly the “optics” are playing with the African American community? It isn’t just a matter of them “seeing it differently.” They feel betrayed. They feel sick. They know that President Obama had to work twice as hard and be “twice as scandal free” and work twice as hard on the “optics” than any other president in history by virtue of the colour of his skin. They watched as his last years in office were obstructed by a party determined not to let him get anything done. They watched as (largely) white people allowed the stupidest man in the history of the world (maybe or maybe not hyperbole) become the most powerful person on the planet. They have watched as the stupidest man in the planet bought in his team of stupid people into the White House and they have watched as these stupid people have bumbled along breaking things, saying stupid things, and signing executive orders that will make their lives harder.
And then this happened. Obama, no longer the President, no longer in office, no longer in power, a private citizen doing his own thing, gets told not to do his thing for the “greater good” of the Democrats.
Well fuck that.
He has done his duty. He has served his country. I’m sure he will continue to do what he thinks is best for the good of the American people but even if he chose not to do that, that would be his decision to make.
So while you might not be able to see how this is an issue of race, and while you claim to have a general understanding of how “African Americans might see it differently”, you really don’t actually understand how they think and they feel about this issue at all.
So you don’t actually think he is “sleeping with the enemy.”
Can you cite anyone who actually does think he is sleeping with the enemy?
Perhaps you should have a little bit of faith in your fellow progressives. They didn’t vote for Trump. They probably think, just like you, that Obama is not actually sleeping with the enemy, and they also realize that Obama is not standing for President. Trump voters are going to keep on voting for Trump. True conservatives voters don’t care. People on the fence will look to what the Democrats actually are doing, and not what the former president happened to do for 90 minutes.
So who is it you are trying to protect? Whose votes do you think you are getting?
The actual optics of this are really really bad. “White liberals tell black man what is and isn’t acceptable.” That is going to be the legacy of this whole debacle. Further marginalisation of African Americans. More division.
Oh please.
But do share. I would love you to explain, in length, your expertise in this manner, and why you know more about “this” (whatever the heck “this” is) than I do.
As is the case with a lot of online forum discussions, we’re probably talking past each other. I don’t really care. My ego’s not invested in this.
The black community is not monolithic. This is why I said I know more about this than you do. See, unlike your smart ass, doing nothing more than reading articles on BBC, I actually live in a state that was supposed to be the democratic ‘blue wall’. Moreover, I actually made hundreds of phone calls and visited hundreds of houses in blue collar America. Not just White America, but also Black and Hispanic America. More than a few African Americans - those who supposedly feel ‘betrayed’ - refused to support the candidate that was obviously less racist. In fact there were several black individuals who asked me to get off their property before I even had a chance to meet them and condescendingly explain to them why Trump was so bad for their future.
There are other constituents, and other minority groups, than African Americans. And, like anyone else, they have their own feelings about Barack Obama – and Hillary Clinton for that matter. You (and most dopers who probably read the NYT and WaPo or BBC religiously) might be surprised at what you’d hear if you’d actually get out of your ivory towers and friggin talk to REAL people. Again, I’ve got nothing to prove. I’ve walked the walk. And despite being ridiculed on the Pit thread for being an alarmist, I proved to be a lot more in touch with reality on November 8, 2016 than most of the self-anointed ‘experts’ here on SDMB. Again, this is probably because I actually get out and talk to real people rather than listening to NPR all day.
Again, they’re not a monolith. They are individuals, but like most progressives, you lump them together and take their votes for granted, which is fine…until it doesn’t work.
I really don’t give a piss what progressives think. If progressives continue to be the elitists who do nothing more than assemble in large coastal metropolises, swirl their wine, eat organic, and sniff each others’ farts, then they’re going to continue to be even further marginalized and politically irrelevant than they are now. Go to Middle America. Bowl a few frames. Drink a six pack. See how the ‘enemy’ lives.
…sure. No “investment” at all. Which is why, after you stated “That’s all I’m gonna say”, here you are, still saying stuff.
I haven’t read an article on the BBC in about a couple of years. What the fuck are you talking about now?
So you’ve picked up the phone in the last few days, made hundreds of phone calls to Black Americans and you asked them how they felt about Obama taking money for a speech? What did they tell you?
I don’t read the Washington Post and I don’t read the New York Times. What the fuck are you talking about? I can point you to a pit thread where every single one of my predictions has come true as well. I can point you to the pit thread where I vigorously defend the people in the rust belt who voted for Trump. But we aren’t having that discussion here.
Don’t lecture me about treating people as a monolithic block and then accuse me of religiously watching or reading something I don’t. I’m not part of whatever conspiracy you’ve concocted in your head.
How many African Americans have you talked to about this specific topic in the last few days? What did they tell you?
And I’m not the one taking their votes for granted. I’m suggesting to you, that by making this an issue, you are going to loose their votes. I’m telling you to look at the optics. I’m telling you to stop taking their votes for granted.
I suggested you have faith in them.
Your response tells me that you not only don’t have faith in them, you hate them. You despise them.
This isn’t about Obama at all. This is just a rant against what you consider the “elite.”
Well I’m glad your true colours have come out. Now I ask you again to have some perspective. Because progressives don’t see middle America as the enemy. They are not the elite. No one thinks that Obama is on the take. So you don’t have to worry about those optics.
Progressives are not the problem. And being angry at them is not going to do a damn about the real problems facing America.
I’m more upset when Hillary was accepting $250,000 plus expenses for making 45 minute speeches at colleges while at the same time, talking about lowering the cost of going to college.
Doesn’t bother me. It was completely up to those colleges to accept her terms for speaking or not, if there is any controversy, it lies at the foot of the person scheduling and accepting those speeches.
I see no issue with ex-president getting paid for speeches, mostly because they are EX presidents. They no longer establish policy and if companies want to pay to have celebrity/expert opinions expressed at their venue, the price they are willing to pay is up to them.
The dirty secret is Obama when he bailed out the banks and told his justice department not to go after the wall street crooks is getting his quid pro quo.
Hell yes, he should be critiqued. I expect more of these outrageous speaking fees.
And I realize how true it is, and yet see people doing it anyway. So in an effort to reach across the aisle:
So, yeah! Obama’s a sellout, man! Democrats: rise up. Wake up. Fight the Wall Street power, let your leaders know you won’t take this kind of fraternization with the enemy.
At minimum, a litmus test for any 2018 midterm Democratic candidate should be a willingness to condemn Obama in no uncertain terms for this betrayal.
Do you have any hard evidence of this - a poll, say, of African Americans who say they are betrayed and sick because Obama gave a speech on Wall Street? I googled around a bit, and I can’t find any indication that African Americans as a community are either aware of the speech, or care about it. Has this alleged sense of betrayal affected his approval ratings?