Should people avoid consuming art they enjoy from an artist who they dislike or disagree with on a personal level?

Great Debates
121

I’m writing this as an avid consumer of fantasy fiction: I read 60-80 books a year, and more than 90% are fantasy or science fiction or otherwise supernatural. It is 100% possible to write excellent fantasy without being gross about it. Hell, you can write stories with evil goblins without being racist: check out Black Tongue Thief for the world’s creepiest goblins.

This may bring us back around to the OP: one of the reasons I’m skeevy about consuming art (at least narrative art) from personally reprehensible people is that I’m no believer in the death of the author. What the author believes inevitably shows up in their work, and a good narrative is often just the syrup needed to make the bitter poison easier to swallow. Knowing an author is, for example, an unrepentant racist, I can’t help but be watching for how that poison shows up in their story; and that’s going to make it less fun for me.

122

See, for example, many of Piers Anthony’s works.

Or rather, don’t see them. Because there’s a lot of creepy underage sex in them.

123

I’m curious if you have read Orson Scott Card’s books and what you think of those? I am not sure I saw his views in his work but I admit it has been a long time since I read his books.

124

I’ve not reread his books since learning about his views, so it’s difficult for me to address this. When I was a teenager I devoured everything my library had by him.

125

After reading Ender’s Game I’m convinced the man is a self-hating homosexual. I perceived a lot of gay subtext in that book. It doesn’t excuse his bigotry, but it helps me contextualize it.

126

Well, I’m in my 60’s, and people were talking about Christine Jorgensen before I was born. It was perhaps seen as a rarer phenomenon in the 60’s, when her autobiography was published, and there was less general social acceptance (as there was to homosexuality and feminism), but it wasn’t unknown, and it was being discussed.

127

Interesting story, thanks.

I think that a lot of people were expecting this game to be kind of shit given that the studio was largely known for making crappy movie adaptation shovelware games (for anyone else who might be confused, this Avalanche isn’t the same one that did actual good games like Mad Max) and were sort of blindsided by Hogwarts Legacy actually getting a very positive reception. If the game was terrible, it’d be less of a concern for those concerned.

128

Reprehensible how?

Do you have an issue with the fact that I find a particular individual disgusting because he made a habit of groping women, his fans, his staff, everywhere?

Or do you have an issue with the fact that I would destroy objects that I own?

129

It’s been quite a while since I read any of his books, also – specifically because I did start seeing his views in his work.

Quit reading Fritz Leiber for the same reason; have trouble now with even some of the older stuff in which it was, at least when I first read it, much less obvious to me.

It was also standardly accepted long before that in a number of non-European societies.

As most of the current transphobes (and some current non-transphobes) don’t seem to know that, however, the relevance to the current situation may be mostly ‘this is in no way a new or even recent phenomenon.’ But yes, the existence of at least an occasional trans person was pretty well known by the 60’s or 70’s, if often not well understood.

130

It’s a few years ago I read the Harry Potter books, but as I remembered it, their noses were not mentioned. I just looked the first description up:

I don’t really like to defend Rowling, because her trans views are horrible, but in this case the filmmakers are to blame.

131

That’s entirely possible. Before writing my posts in this thread I looked up “Rowling goblins” and got movie stills, and they were the basis for what I wrote.

That said, Rowling was deeply connected to making the films. I’ve never encountered any evidence that she objected to the portrayal of the goblins, either before or after the films were released.

132

And thousands and thousands of years before the concept of “European” even existed. Here’s an interactive map. Many ancient cultures incorporated trans and/or nonbinary gender into their language, customs, religion, etc.

133

Moderating:

This is a personal attack. You can make your points about the opinions you hold without engaging in this. Don’t do it again.

134

I take it on a case by case basis, based on my gut reaction (I’m not going to do in-depth research on every artist’s background before enjoying their art).

But, in general, I won’t buy any type of art, if the artist has done what I consider a heinous act (e.g. murder, rape, physical assault, etc., not political affiliation, being a jerk, the color of their hair, etc.), and only if buying their art (in any form) directly benefits them. If they are dead, or if their art is in public domain, etc., I see no reason to not enjoy their art. In fact, I could argue that their art is one way they pay back society for the heinous acts they committed.

Let’s take Bill Cosby as an example. I’m not going to throw away my Cosby Albums (if I still have any), because I already paid for them, and he already received residuals on that. Throwing them away now would only hurt me, not him (not that I listen to them anymore, and probably wouldn’t enjoy them knowing what I know). On the other hand, if Cosby gets out of prison and cuts a new album, I won’t buy it. I now know that he’s a rapist, and he would benefit from the sale. And, I don’t mind denying people associated with Cosby cutting a new album (or concert tour, or whatever) because they now know that he committed a heinous act and I don’t believe they should be associated with that.

But, there certainly are a lot of grey areas. Should you watch re-runs of The Cosby Show, if Cosby still gets residuals on them? Well, I don’t want to benefit Cosby, but what about all the other cast and crew who worked on that show who did not know Cosby was a rapist at the time? Should they lose out on their residuals too, because the star committed a heinous act? And, even Cosby’s family (who I assume are not guilty of any crime), should they suffer loss of the Cosby estate residuals because of the acts of the father? Hard to say.

So, I follow my gut reaction, case by case.

135

Just FYI, but he’s been out for over a year now.

And he’s touring a new show.

136

I guess that shows I don’t really follow him anymore.

137

This seems to be the loose consensus from the posts so far.

What has not gotten a lot of discussion is how much you (general “you”) will revile or disdain others who consume art from someone you dislike.

In the video linked in the OP, Sterling was pretty clear that they cannot abide someone who buys Hogwarts Legacy.

Of course, that is their personal choice, but I wonder at the morality of it. If they do not want to associate with me for that reason that is their choice. But is it ok if they rant on the side that I (and anyone else) who consumes that product is a “bad” person (or a person of questionable morality or ethics)?

138

I think for me that might depend on how they “rant on the side.” If they explain, quietly, to our mutual friend why they didn’t invite me to their party? That’s up to them. If they contact everyone we know to tell them I’m a horrible person and why? I think that’s excessive. If they start contacting people I don’t know, or the general public, or whatever? I think that’s really excessive. (At least, in the context of my not being a public figure. If they want to write to the paper, or equivalent, and say ‘I’m not voting for X for Senator because of this reason’, that’s different.)

If they contact other people, whether we both know them or not, to tell them I’m a horrible person but don’t tell them why, or only tell them 'She’s a transphobe!" but not tell them ‘the only reason I say that is that she bought Hogwarts Legacy’, that’s utterly and terribly out of line, and I’d be furious.

(For the record: I haven’t bought Hogwarts Legacy; I wouldn’t have anyway, but at this point anything by Rowlings is on my buy-only-as-used-goods list. And if somebody loves Orson Scott Card, I’d probably point out a thing or two to them if the subject came up in case they hadn’t noticed, but I’d still be friends with them.)

139

Yeah, I guess a quiet rant is okay, but generally I think it’s taking it a bit too far to judge someone for their consumption choices, unless their choices are accompanied by a lot of rationalizing the bad behavior. Like if someone said, “I love the Cosby show, and maybe he drugged those women but they must have known what they were getting into dressing like that and going to a famous man’s house,” I’d have a harder time with that. I’m much, much more comfortable if someone says, “Cosby is a vile rapist but had a tremendous influence on the comedy scene so I appreciate his impact as a comedian.” It’s the rationalizing that bothers me so much, because it’s those attitudes that persist in a society and do more harm collectively than any one individual.

140

…I feel like you didn’t even watch the video. Or you didn’t understand it. It isn’t that they are a “bad person.” Its just that they can no longer trust them. They aren’t an ally. They aren’t on the same side of the fight.

We are heading towards the height of a moral panic that has translated into everything from the removal of trans rights to things like this: the right to bully.

If a video game review site decided to platform the game it means that they cannot be trusted. When they fly the pride flag during pride month, it’s entirely preformative. Live streamers who play the game aren’t allies. They haven’t listened to the critiques. They are allowed to do that. But as states continue to pass legislation that protects teachers and students rights to “use a trans person’s biological sex pronouns and legal name” as HB361 does, we simply are not going to forget that these people had the opportunity to do a small, tiny thing in solidarity: and they didn’t.

The amount of emotional energy to keep going in this fight is exhausting. So the equation here is a simple one: do we give the people that don’t stand shoulder-to-shoulder with trans people the time of day? Steph thinks we shouldn’t, and its hard to disagree.