This thread sounds like equal parts ageism, entitlement, finger-pointing and general hand-wavy broad-brushiness to me.
I don’t really know where this animosity towards Boomers came from (or even if it exists outside of the bizarre world of people ranting on the internet). I view most Boomers as being similar to my parents and their friends. They spent their entire career working for a few, if not one employer who they may not have loved but probably didn’t hate either. They lived in a typical suburban home and raised a couple kids. After years of saving, they are now entering retirement with a decent nest egg.
What happened was the world changed. Boomers didn’t have to deal with globalization. They didn’t experience technological changes that were so rapid that the job you land after college may not have existed when you enrolled. They didn’t live in a world of 7 billion people. Sure, they might have seen some glimpses of it in the 70s and 80s. But it would still take another decade or so before those trends really kicked in.
Of course they should expect hostility from young people. Not because they deserve it but because young people always resent older people telling them what to do. Young people always think “if only these old geezers get out of the way and let us take over, we could change the world”. But of course when that happens, they don’t. The young people get older and are either changed by the world or they find new ways to fuck it up.
On the other side from my parents is my mother in law, who we subsidize. Now, keep in mind, I’m barely not a boomer, and by at least some definitions my husband IS a boomer.
But it hasn’t just been her own bad decisions. She is a pre-boomer - born in the 1930s. In the early 1960s she thought she’d follow in her mother’s footsteps and be a housewife. My father in law is an ass - and she is a pushover - so her “amicable divorce” meant she got screwed on retirement income. She didn’t have enough working years to build up a 401k or really enough social security quarters. In many ways, she is a victim of a moment in time.
Then there was my brother in law, her son - younger than I am, so post boom. And he’s one who didn’t get his career going for twenty years and who we repeatedly bailed out.
Financial intelligence is not reserved for certain generations. And if you don’t want to enable your parents (or your children, since dare I remind people that the youngest boomers are the enablers of the “boomerang generation” - those whose “failure to launch” is legendary and is creating a problem with their parents retiring), tell them to pound sand. Remind them that you need to save for your own retirement because you don’t want to be a burden on their grandchilden (or if you don’t have kids, because there is no one for you to become a burden to).
Ahem! I’m a boomer and I’ve been going through all of that all my life (emphasis added). Maybe I saw it ahead of the curve having started my working career in Silicon Valley, but I think you misunderstand many of us boomers.
You’re absolutely right. I worked through the entire change from paper to computerization, starting with the old Zenith computers that were far from being PCs. I remember the advent of handheld calculators in the 70s, the first use of computer dumb terminal work stations with green screens, the beginning of the Internet and having to cart around a Blackberry that didn’t work for shit. I kept current on all of it out of the necessity to remain viable in the job market, taught myself how to use programs like MS Word and Excel, Powerpoint and MS Project. When I was 58 I had a job that required me to travel all over the US to manage construction projects, and deal with the State Department on some overseas projects.
I’m now 67 and I only retired five years ago. There are certainly things that are new since then, but I have no need for a lot of them, so the requirement to stay absolutely current just isn’t there any longer.
When I started to work, people had pensions, even in private companies, and so saving for retirement was not an issue. The people ahead of the Boomer generation took them away to save money. And then got rid of people at the slightest provocation. I have plenty of money in my retirement accounts, thank you, but I’ve never been unemployed and have always made good money. I can feel for those not so lucky.
My kids have no college debt, btw. And at work people half my age ask me for computer help.
These threads are largely subjective, but as a Gen X member, I say that we fucked it up and here’s why:
The Greatest Generation–they beat the greatest evils last century knew: Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. The U.S. survived as the sole remaining superpower and they took advantage of it. They didn’t piss away the wealth. They did their best to see that the next generation (Boomers) had what they did not and saved and saved to make it happen
Boomers–took the values from their parents and still saved. Went through tough times with Vietnam, lived live a little better (nicer vacations, nicer cars) but were humble and were responsible with money and wanted to provide for the next generation
Gen X—started well for us. We had the values from our grandparents and our parents. Looked like Desert Storm would be our draft and trial by fire. It didn’t pan out. The 90s came with economic prosperity. We spent money like it was going out of style; taking lavish vacations and driving top tier vehicles. The dot com bubble burst. The new economy left us scrambling; we climbed out of debt and/or bankruptcy and have learned to live in the new reality. Our kids took out college loans.
Gen Y/Millennials—They are the whiny fucks that we created. They went on lavish vacations and rode in nice cars that they believe they are entitled to because they breathe. They don’t know how to write a check or balance a bank account. They swipe a piece of plastic that buys them whatever they select whether that is a new HDTV or a Starbucks latte. We wanted to provide for them, but never set limits because we thought there never would be. It’s our fault.
Yeah, seems weird. My Dad, start of the boomers, never figured he’d need to learn to type. He was a salesman, and when he started, his job was taking orders and at the end of the day, he’d pick up the phone and call a clerk at the other end who would write them up - if they were urgent. Otherwise, he’d write them up (using carbon paper) and mail them in to be processed.
When he retired, he had a laptop and was being expected to use salesforce.com to track projections and sales calls, as well as input orders.
By the way, he worked in several industries during that time, the first one he started working for was tobacco, but that wasn’t much of a job even by the mid 70s. Then he worked for a company that went under due to globalization. Then he worked for one that got merged with another one - globalization. He finished his career working for a manufacturers rep group whose product mix changed constantly.
Me, I learned how to type. So I started my right after boomer career as a secretary, remember those? I did that because post graduation in 1988 it was the only job I could get - but companies still had lots of secretaries. Most secretaries were older than I was - boomers. They had it easy as the world changed and they were 50 years old and watching their profession disappear. And to have any chance of keeping it, they had to go through a constant barrage of Wordperfect to Word, learn how to user Powerpoint, and maintain the intranet site.
I am a boomer, born in 55. We made some mistakes, and we did some good things. I don’t think any generation is perfect. I have seen some hostility from younger workers, but in manufacturing, it has been a declining field for some time, and employment has been a zero sum game since the 80’s. I retired out of a auto plant in 2008. I was one of the youngest workers when I was hired in 1979, and I was still one of the youngest in 2008. Between offshoring of jobs and technology, employment in manufacturing has sucked for a long time. I don’t see that changing in my lifetime.
So the boomers are to reviled because they are retiring and hence sucking off the teat of Social Security and Medicare while no longer contributing. And to be reviled because they are not retiring and therefore not opening up rungs in the ladder.
Really the problem is that they keep living apparently.
I am the tail end of Boomer (55, born in '59). What is I see more than anything else is simple fact that the world is different. For those my age and older in the United States it was very realistic to expect to be able to maintain or advance in socioeconomic and educational status than were our parents had been, as they had from where there parents had been. GDP was growing by more than 5% more often than not in those years, sometimes over 10%. Since 1980 it has uncommonly been over 5% and never over 10%. The debt associated with education has skyrocketed while having at least college degree is more a prerequisite than ever before. And yes that sizable Boomer cohort keeps living, either placing a strain on support systems that had figured on fewer living as long or preventing jobs from opening up.
It is not an easy economic time for many young adults and “Boomers” are an easy target.
Here’s the impression I have of the Boomers. Feel free to correct any factual errors I may have. All cards on the table; I’m a mid 30’s male with a pretty good manager-level job in a very large company.
Boomers voted themselves huge pensions and retirement benefits, more than any generation before or since. Boomers benefited from the best job market in the history of the USA, where you could literally be an unskilled, uneducated nobody and still support a family on your single income. Boomers call the Millenials lazy because they won’t find work, when they’re facing one of the worst job markets in history and most of the available jobs are for part time or with terrible salary and benefits. Millenials aren’t lazy; you’re just assholes. Millenials produce more than you do, are more educated than you are, are compensated lower than you are, and to top it all off, they have to endure their parents and grandparents calling them the worst generation ever. Boomers broke the economy, and won’t let younger generations fix it. We’re stuck with your bullheaded “nobody gets to suck the government teat but us” far right (both parties!) government until enough of you die that we can actually make progress.
You have to remember that when WE hit the streets with OUR newly minted degrees, it was the same thing. There were a LOT of us, there were not that many jobs, and there were a bunch of old geezers who just would not retire and clear the way.
I remember a conversation with one of my high school teachers, a younger guy who was practice teaching. We were talking about how hopeless the economy was and about the national debt and how the older generation had screwed things up past all redemption, and he said, “Hey, don’t blame me, I’ve only just started working. We’re probably going to end up paying off the national debt together.” This conversation took place in 1967.
And what happened to some of us went something like this: Work at a company for 30 years, your job gets sent offshore, and there goes your pension because you are not quite old enough to claim it, and now it’s gone. (Not me; I never worked anywhere long enough to get a pension, and most of the companies I worked for went out of business or bankrupt. No, it was not my fault they went out of business!)
I didn’t see anyone respond to this yet, so I will.
It is not possible for a typical person to pay cash for medical emergencies or medical care requiring more than a single doctor visit. Healthcare costs are much higher now, even after adjusting for inflation. Hospitals are so in bed with insurance companies now that an uninsured person will receive a bill two or three times higher than insurance would have paid for the same treatment. Also, you take for granted that “good jobs” are still available. By and large, they are not.
A semester of school now costs two years or more of wages from an entry level full time job. If you had literally zero other expenses, you would not be able to “work to pay for tuition.” You did nothing special by paying your way through college thirty five years ago. Lots of people did, because it was easy, school was cheap, and jobs were good. None of those things are true anymore.
When I clicked the link it went to an error page, but I won’t contest that unemployment isn’t more of a problem now than before. The problem now is underemployment. The Boomers voted to crush labor unions at every opportunity, so now the types of jobs most people can get are limited to the types of jobs companies can get away with offering. Part time carefully calculated to not have to provide medical insurance, or full time as a “consultant” so you don’t get insurance or retirement benefits, or “on call” so you can’t get a second job, or so grossly underpaid that you still have to live with your parents. There was one brief moment of maybe 40 years in between all the history of millenia of virtual (or actual!) serfdom and indentured servitude, and you happened to be working right in the middle of it.
I won’t argue with this, because I fully admit that we are currently being taxed at a lower rate than almost any time before. I don’t agree that it’s a wise tax policy, though.
I’m 42 and i just want to say to all the Baby Boomers, thanks!!! thanks for showing us what a social conscience is. I feel that it was a team effort of your generation and my generation that has made the world (USA) less racist and homophobic. Thank goodness for that! To the Millenials, social justice is easier to acquire than economic equality. I count on your generation to achieve that! As far as waiting for all the Boomers to retire, well, maybe they just like having a job…
Actually Mosier the way it works around here is that if you claim something you are prepared to substantiate it.
Most of your post illustrates exactly what I was saying - things are harder for those who came after the Boomer cohort and Boomers are easy to blame; things are tough so those above you must be assholes - but your facts? Let’s just start with the “voted themselves huge pensions and retirement benefits, more than any generation before or since.” Right off pensions have been a fading thing since the 70s. Boomers mainly don’t have them. In terms of defined contribution plans “Younger Households Tend to Have Higher Rates of IRA or Defined Contribution Plan Ownership” … if anything the issue is that the Boomer cohort has preferred to have more of the income as cash in hand and has inadequately prepared for how long they are likely to live. If only they had elected to have more put away towards a pension plan or as defined contribution plans.
Millennials produce more than Boomers? Care to support that claim? Maybe if you want to count those Boomers who are retired and no longer producing. Or maybe by total amount rather than per capita as there are likely significantly more Millennials in the workforce now than Boomers. Otherwise that claim seems ludicrous. Maybe they will … there really is every reason to be optimistic about this coming of age cohort. They are highly educated and have the potential to use technology as a productivity multiplier in ways that previous generations imagined and created but did not use to the same degree. They also understand more than their parents did about the need to invest early. But do? Back that one up.
That’s not as true here as it is in Great Debates, but I understand the point.
Your link shows pensions losing popularity at pretty much the same rate as contribution-only plans gaining popularity, ever since the late 70’s. That’s kind of the point of my argument. Pensions lasted exactly as long as baby boomers were in their prime, and were still more popular than contribution only plans as of 1990, until the very moment Boomers’ kids started working. Boomers largely don’t have to pay for their retirement. Boomers’ kids and grandkids have to pay for their own retirement, and their parents’ retirement.
That one’s simple enough. Workers today produce 50-100% more per capita (after adjusting for inflation) than they did at any arbitrarily-chosen time during the Boomers’ youth. Sure, a lot of that is because of gains in technology and education, but it would be pretty silly to argue that Boomers are more educated or are better able to take advantage of technology than Millenials are.
Boomers are “more engaged” at work, and put in longer hours and are more loyal to their employers, but at the end of the day they just aren’t the ones getting shit done, and to be honest they never really were. Their parents created the economic conditions the Boomers inherited, and their kids fixed the economic crises the Boomers created, just like the Millennials are fixing the recession my generation created. It was my generation who borrowed with imaginary money to inflate the housing market, and it was the Boomers who borrowed from their children in order to pay themselves way more than they were worth. The Millennials are stuck holding the bill for both previous generations. Even though their productivity is twice as high as their grandparents’, their real wages are lower than their parents’, and these same people are calling the Millennials lazy, and telling stories about how* their *generation pulled themselves up by the bootstraps and worked their way through college and weren’t so goddamn entitled! It’s maddeningly hypocritical.
You complain about people being underemployed, but then about the lack of unions. Would those underemployment opportunities even exist if we had more unions?
I graduated from college just about 30 years ago, and your statement isn’t true if you’re looking at the same colleges. Any college where a semester costs “two years or more of wages from an entry level job” ( which is at least $20K per semester/$40K per year) was equally expensive then. Among the reasons I chose my college were that I could commute (eliminating the need to pay for rent) and I could pay tuition by working a minimum wage job. It wouldn’t have worked at most colleges unless I wanted to stretch my attendance over 10 years or more. My kids recently attended the same university and could still have paid tuition from a minimum wage job. Yes, their tuition was 5x as much as mine - but 5X $1000/yr is still only $5000/yr.
And as far as “voted themselves huge pensions and benefits”? When was that ever up for a vote? Sure, pension participation may have exceed defined benefit participation up until 1990 - but the boomers started entering the labor market somewhere around 1970, right about the time when pension participation started to decrease. Those pension participants that were still showing up in 1990 included people who entered the labor market in the '50s and '60s- the generation before the Boomers. And as they retired in the 1990s and 2000s that lowered the number of working age participants in pension plans.
