Should schools use Saturday detention as punishment?

[Emilio_Lizardo]

During a recent discussion of high school memories, my wife brought up the issue of Saturday detention being used as a punishment at schools. I was a high school student in Chicago in the early eighties, and I don’t recall such a thing, outside of the movie “The Breakfast Club,” but the Mrs insists that it was common in her neck of the woods.

Is this a legitimate way for schools to punish infractions? I say “no.” You are required by law to be in school for certain hours during the week, so it seems reasonable for the school to put students in detention during those mandated school hours if appropriate. But how can the school require a student to come to campus and be detained during off-hours, such a saturday? Where does the schools ability to punish stop? It seems obvious to me that the school does not have the authority to impose extra-curricular punishments such as grounding or giving up the Nintendo or going to bed without dinner, so why should it have this power?

[furlibusea]

In the school I taught at last year, we had no ability to make kids do detention, and it was horrible. If kids were tardy, then they were sent out of class to do detention then. It was so stupid. Some kids used it to get out of a class they didn’t like, then they would tell their parents the reason they were failing was this stupid school policy of not alowing tardy students in class. Any attempts at after school detentions got screams from parents about the kid missing work.

[Anaamika]

@furlibusea

Some kids used it to get out of a class they didn’t like, then they would tell their parents the reason they were failing was this stupid school policy of not alowing tardy students in class. Any attempts at after school detentions got screams from parents about the kid missing work.

This is the thing I don’t get. If my parents heard this excuse from me they would say, “Don’t be late.” End of discussion.

And I wasn’t allowed to work. I kind of wish I had been, but if I had, I would have lost the job in a second if it had been interfering with school in anyway.

In answer to the OP: if there is no other choice, then the teachers I guess have to do whatever they need to. there is so much interference with teachers by parents these days I’m surprised they don’t all give up.

[CC]

Schools are pretty stupid places these days and getting stupider. Of course, the whole idea of punishment is one that should be examined periodically by every school - to say nothing of society in general. If classrooms and education were valued for their intrinsic qualities, if teachers were better educated, if principals had some clout or some integrity, or both, and used it, if schools were more interesting, if the legislature were to get out of the instructional prescription business, there would be less need to punish, and, hopefully, less interest in it. Punishment doesn’t change people - just their behavior. We should be about creating a better educated, and therefore more civil and decent, student - less in need of punishment, not because they fear reprisal, but because they are less inclined to do bad things. The better schools have the least amount of punishment - less desire to punish and less need to. Education needs to be based on trust, not threat. I yield my place on this soapbox only long enough to read the following rants. xo C.

[Stonebow]

We have Saturday School in our school district (central Arkansas)…to me, it seems more like a punishment for the parent (get up early and bring child to school) than for the child herself. Unfortunately, a lot of parents just see school as day care until it inconveniences them.

Of course, i’m all for getting parental attention. Parents too often get a pass in the educational process. I don’t care if they’re not smart, or not inclined to academics- but there are parents out there that actively work against the school’s mission by promoting lower standards, lax behavior, and pushing extra-curricular activites (sports, part-time work) over academics. All under the guise of ‘my child is special.’

Of course, you’ll never get anyone to vote against bad parents, so what do you do? Punish teachers, principals, bus drivers, etc. and hope things get better.

[furlibusea]

The parents need to start dealing with their part of the problem. From the mom who writes absence excuses over and over, to the parents that throw their kids out, to the people that hire lawyers when their kid gets caught cheating, or flunks a class, sometimes I think that the parents do need punishing. The amount I had to cover my ass to flunk a kid that had turned in no work at all for a class that had homework every night was amazing.

There was the parent that yelled at me for not talking to her sooner. I started playing phone tag with her two weeks into the class and finaly caught her four weeks in. The kid was not doing any work, was stoned most of the time she showed up for class, and had some administrator who would write her passes. I think someone got through to her though, because she tried out for track and started doing much better in school when she realised she couldn’t keep running if she didn’t.

There are bad teachers, but honestly, more tests won’t fix that. I just wish there was a way to help some of these kids get better parents.

[blowero]

@Emilio Lizardo

Is this a legitimate way for schools to punish infractions? I say “no.” You are required by law to be in school for certain hours during the week, so it seems reasonable for the school to put students in detention during those mandated school hours if appropriate.

If it’s during regular school hours, then it’s not detention, is it?

[Ms2001]

To the OP: I agree entirely. A school has no legitimate right to force students to come in on a weekend, especially without providing transportation. The state does not own students’ spare time.

@blowero

If it’s during regular school hours, then it’s not detention, is it?

During regular school hours, it’s “In School Suspension”, at least around here.

[beagledave]

@Mr2001

To the OP: I agree entirely. A school has no legitimate right to force students to come in on a weekend, especially without providing transportation. The state does not own students’ spare time.
.

That’s silly.

Following this line of thinking, schools don’t have a “legitimate right” to force kids to take summer school if they are failing? Of course kids can NOT go to summer school…which means that they don’t get promoted.

Of course kids/parents could choose to not attend the Saturday detention, in which case the school can choose some sort of external suspension. Saturday detentions are not a first response…they are a response to behavior when other responses have generally been exhausted (as a general rule…there are probably exceptions…but I’ve googled a few policies and have never seen Saturday detentions as a first response unless it’s a very serious behavior).

I see Saturday detentions as an alternative to more suspensions…which is what would happen if you took that option away.

[Ms2001]

@beagledave

Following this line of thinking, schools don’t have a “legitimate right” to force kids to take summer school if they are failing? Of course kids can NOT go to summer school…which means that they don’t get promoted.

Exactly. Forcing kids to attend school outside the normal school season is no more legitimate than forcing them to attend school outside the normal school week. If they need to make up credits, they can do it when school starts the next year.

Of course kids/parents could choose to not attend the Saturday detention, in which case the school can choose some sort of external suspension.

I’ve always wondered why external suspension is considered a punishment. A few days off school is a reward for kids who don’t want to be there.

In-school suspension, OTOH, is a punishment - not only do you still have to be at school, but you have to spend all day sitting silently in the same spot.

[MaddyStrut]

Every year the seniors from our school would try and steal the Big Boy statue from the restaurant down the street and put it in our school’s front yard. My senior year, we accomplished it. Of course, we were very stupid and they found out who it was right away. We were given two options: 5 Saturday detentions or miss prom. We all chose the detentions. It sucked to be there on a Saturday, but we really did deserve it (we could have been in a lot more trouble if the restaurant had pressed charges).

I really didn’t think it was that bad or look at it as taking my rights away or anything. It was a punishment and, as such, it was really rather mild. It didn’t affect our grades and it didn’t take away from Saturday sports we were in (since detention was over before any games or matches started).

I guess I don’t see it as a problem because Saturday detention was always one option you could choose as punishment. Usually it was do the detentions or give up some privilege (like prom for us).

But we didn’t have to write an essay as in The Breakfast Club. I read novels.

[Martin_Hyde]

I’ve always had an opinion similar to Rousseau on education.

He said that the people who are motivated and want to better themselves, will become educated. He even said that to teach children academics was not productive, because children would themselves take up academic discipline if they were interested. And those children that did not, were the children who would ignore academic education or not participate very well in it if it were forced upon them.

Now, I don’t take quite as extreme a viewpoint as he does, I think all parents should send their kids to school and explain to them the importance of an education.

But I do not believe it should be the job of educators to force education, they shouldn’t have to “motivate” their children, they should teach what they are hired to teach. They should do it in a way that will cause the student to think, but it isn’t their job to be entertainers and keep the children entertained. People must be given their own responsibilities in life.

With that in mind, when we have these established educational institutions that are universal, that is, everyone in the district is admitted, we have to have certain rules.

Why? Because in this country those children that do not want to learn are sent to school with the children that do.

We need punishment because we have to control the children that do not want to learn, we have to keep them from interfering with the education of other children.

What if we have say, a Sophomore History class. There are three boys in the class who constantly disrupt the classroom. They throw books, paper airplanes, talk constantly, et cetra.

The teacher is bound by the suggestion of the people in this thread, and the teacher cannot give them after school or before school detention, let alone Saturday detention.

That leaves only one option that can keep the troublemakers from ruining the education of others. The school has to suspend the troublemakers for three days.

Let’s say one of the troublemakers parents is a disciplinarian, and gets pissed as hell over the suspension. Well, that kid comes back and behaves better because he was punished at home, and his suspension was not fun.

The other two have parents that just don’t care, the suspension was just 3 days of fun for them.

They come back, disrupt class more, so, since the only option is suspension (since detention is a violation of their rights) they get suspended again.

Eventually, they reach so many suspensions, that in line with county policy, they are expelled from school and cannot attend any schools in that district for one year.

That solved the problem. The class was able to learn, and two children are evicted from school and given absolutely no chance at learning, as an expulsion usually is the end of a High School student’s academic career.

What after school or Saturday school solves is it gives the school a way to punish the children that actually effects them. It takes some of their free time. The two troublemakers come back the next day, and they behave, because sure, they still aren’t paying much attention in the class, but they don’t feel like losing an hour after school again.

And maybe since they don’t have anything to do (because they are now at least behaving) they MIGHT soak in some of the information being taught.

It’s a tough situation with children who absolutely refuse to learn, but I think there is a significant number of children who have in them a covered up desire to learn. These children can possibly be saved by trying to mold their behavior into behavior that at least gives them the chance to observe and soak in knowledge.

For the select few children that HATE school, have no parental guidance, refuse under any circumstances to learn, well, the after school detention won’t effect them. They just won’t go, they’ll get suspended (typical punishment for skipping detention) and then they’ll slowly move down the path to expulsion. Or they’ll get put in a behavioral disorder class where they sit there and don’t bother anyone other than themselves.

But to banish the children with some untapped potential to academic failure with the children who have no academic desires whatsoever is a sad thing, and I think after school detention (and other punishments in general) help to stop that.

[Martin_Hyde]

@MaddyStrut

Every year the seniors from our school would try and steal the Big Boy statue from the restaurant down the street and put it in our school’s front yard. My senior year, we accomplished it. Of course, we were very stupid and they found out who it was right away. We were given two options: 5 Saturday detentions or miss prom. We all chose the detentions. It sucked to be there on a Saturday, but we really did deserve it (we could have been in a lot more trouble if the restaurant had pressed charges).

I really didn’t think it was that bad or look at it as taking my rights away or anything. It was a punishment and, as such, it was really rather mild. It didn’t affect our grades and it didn’t take away from Saturday sports we were in (since detention was over before any games or matches started).

I guess I don’t see it as a problem because Saturday detention was always one option you could choose as punishment. Usually it was do the detentions or give up some privilege (like prom for us).

But we didn’t have to write an essay as in The Breakfast Club. I read novels.

I often wonder if the Big Boy statue thefts are universal in any town that has one of the restaurants.

A similar prank was a tradition at my school.

[blowero]

@Mr2001

During regular school hours, it’s “In School Suspension”, at least around here.

That’s what I thought. It’s not detention.

In-school suspension, OTOH, is a punishment - not only do you still have to be at school, but you have to spend all day sitting silently in the same spot.

I have two problems with that:

1. It sounds more like a break from schoolwork than a punishment. The student has to sit silently, but in class, one has to sit silently AND do schoolwork. I’m not seeing how the former is any kind of a deterrent.

2. If you take the student out of class for this “In School Suspension”, then they just miss that much instruction, compounding the problem.

[Ms2001]

@blowero

I have two problems with that:

1. It sounds more like a break from schoolwork than a punishment. The student has to sit silently, but in class, one has to sit silently AND do schoolwork. I’m not seeing how the former is any kind of a deterrent.

No… I don’t mean you go into a classroom, chat with your pals until the bell rings, sit there for 45 minutes while reading/listening/watching some class material, get up at the bell, wander the halls for a few minutes, and repeat. That’s what students who aren’t on ISS do.

On ISS, you go into a room when you arrive in the morning, and you sit there for a few hours without talking to anyone or getting up. You get your lunch, in silence, when no one else is in the halls or the lunch room. You eat in the same room you’ve been in all day, in silence, and then you sit there in silence until it’s time to go home.

2. If you take the student out of class for this “In School Suspension”, then they just miss that much instruction, compounding the problem.

True. They still have their textbooks and homework, though.

[CC]

There are so many unwarranted assumptions here it’s hard to know quite where to begin to address some of them. But I’ll try a few.

@Martin Hyde

But I do not believe it should be the job of educators to force education, they shouldn’t have to “motivate” their children, they should teach what they are hired to teach.

As John Dewey said, “The most important attitude that can be learned is a desire to go on learning.” Teachers are hired not to simply impart a shitload of facts, but to help develop healthy habits of mind that lead to a better understanding of the world. This often involves motivating, encourging, supporting and developing interest, curiousity, desire and creating a richer fabric and context for “what they are hired to teach.” Your simplistic view of school is all too common, and one of the reasons we’re going backward in many ways.

We need punishment because we have to control the children that do not want to learn,

What a load of crap. You assume four things here that are not necessarily true: 1) punishment leads to control. 2) children who do not want to learn need controlling. 3) children who do want to learn do not need controlling 4) there are people who do not want to learn. I’ll just address this last one: EVERYone wants to learn. It’s built into our genetics - look at the size of our cerebral hemisphere. The problem is to get kids to want to learn what we think they should learn. This is an entirely different issue from “people who do not want to learn.” If you were to spend a little time in schools these days, you’d understand what most kids are rebelling against - a list of stupid shit that someone thinks they should learn, a host of stupid rules that have little to do with the world, a life that is totally unconnected to them. The world has changed a whole lot, but schools haven’t. Kids know this. Schools don’t.

we have to keep them from interfering with the education of other children.

agreed. Although the question is, how do we do this? Often there are a ton of ways, but sometimes, ostracizing - eliminating them from the classroom - is the simplest. What do you do with them at that point? Well, that could be up to the creativity and resources of the school. But breaking rocks, making license plates, hard labor, and any other punishment will not change the people. The penalty for missing out on any particular class should be obvious. If it’s not, then the problem is with that particular class.

That leaves only one option that can keep the troublemakers from ruining the education of others. The school has to suspend the troublemakers for three days.

That’s the only option? Jesus - I’m happy you’re not running any school districts.
Let’s say one of the troublemakers parents is a disciplinarian, and gets pissed as hell over the suspension. Well, that kid comes back and behaves better because he was punished at home, and his suspension was not fun.

The other two have parents that just don’t care, the suspension was just 3 days of fun for them.

They come back, disrupt class more, so, since the only option is suspension (since detention is a violation of their rights) they get suspended again.

Eventually, they reach so many suspensions, that in line with county policy, they are expelled from school and cannot attend any schools in that district for one year.

That solved the problem. The class was able to learn, and two children are evicted from school and given absolutely no chance at learning, as an expulsion usually is the end of a High School student’s academic career.

Yeah, and society really pays the price for kicking kids out of school - and it’s a high price. Is this what you want? Doofus.

It’s a tough situation with children who absolutely refuse to learn, but I think there is a significant number of children who have in them a covered up desire to learn. These children can possibly be saved by trying to mold their behavior into behavior that at least gives them the chance to observe and soak in knowledge.

For the select few children that HATE school, have no parental guidance, refuse under any circumstances to learn, well, the after school detention won’t effect them. They just won’t go, they’ll get suspended (typical punishment for skipping detention) and then they’ll slowly move down the path to expulsion. Or they’ll get put in a behavioral disorder class where they sit there and don’t bother anyone other than themselves.

But to banish the children with some untapped potential to academic failure with the children who have no academic desires whatsoever is a sad thing, and I think after school detention (and other punishments in general) help to stop that.

[asterion]

@Mr2001

On ISS, you go into a room when you arrive in the morning, and you sit there for a few hours without talking to anyone or getting up. You get your lunch, in silence, when no one else is in the halls or the lunch room. You eat in the same room you’ve been in all day, in silence, and then you sit there in silence until it’s time to go home.

I got stuck with one of those once. Understand, I wasn’t much of a problem them and would be even less of one now, so it was pretty out of character. While I was pissed at the admin, I admit I rather enjoyed myself. I got my work done in no time (it was something like two or three days) and spent the rest of the time reading either the paper or books and doing the crossword and other puzzles.

[CC]

and good luck figuring out my post - because I can’t figure out for myself how to include parts of different quotes, from one poster or from several. Anyway, if you read through it all, you may be able to discriminate between Martin Hyde’s original text and my own.

[Chanteuse]

Unless they offer Sunday detention as well, so that the parents have the option of which day (an “either/or” thing, not both days mandatory), then, no, I don’t believe they should. This is the reason why: my family and I worship on Saturday, and not just by attending church services. The whole day is considered sacred, much in the same way that other families feel about Sunday. So if (though I hope never) my child needed to be in detention, Saturday is, quite simply, not an option. And if other people’s day of worship is respected (and this is the reason so many activities are held on Saturday rather than Sunday), then so should mine (and others like me, of course). If my child needs detetion, then the punishment should be for the infraction, and no extra penalty should be assessed for religious observance!

[Martin_Hyde]

I’m going to try and respond to you CC, unfortunately your post was so semantically flawed it’s going to be a bit difficult (I suggest using the preview feature next time), but here goes:

As John Dewey said, “The most important attitude that can be learned is a desire to go on learning.” Teachers are hired not to simply impart a shitload of facts, but to help develop healthy habits of mind that lead to a better understanding of the world. This often involves motivating, encourging, supporting and developing interest, curiousity, desire and creating a richer fabric and context for “what they are hired to teach.” Your simplistic view of school is all too common, and one of the reasons we’re going backward in many ways.

I’m going to argue that my view on education is no more simplistic than yours or anyone elses. Mine is vastly different from what you may be used to hearing, but that does not make it simplistic.

I explained my view on education as best I could, I’m in line with Rousseau (who was anything but simple) in that certain children will pursue academics to advance themselves no matter WHAT, and certain children will never pursue serious academics under any circumstances.

I honestly feel there are certain children that just don’t mature early enough to pursue the level of academics they are offered in school.

I agree that there is more to teaching the unloading of facts, and I did not intend for my comments to be construed as saying teachers should ONLY unload facts.

What a load of crap. You assume four things here that are not necessarily true: 1) punishment leads to control. 2) children who do not want to learn need controlling. 3) children who do want to learn do not need controlling 4) there are people who do not want to learn. I’ll just address this last one: EVERYone wants to learn. It’s built into our genetics - look at the size of our cerebral hemisphere. The problem is to get kids to want to learn what we think they should learn. This is an entirely different issue from “people who do not want to learn.” If you were to spend a little time in schools these days, you’d understand what most kids are rebelling against - a list of stupid shit that someone thinks they should learn, a host of stupid rules that have little to do with the world, a life that is totally unconnected to them. The world has changed a whole lot, but schools haven’t. Kids know this. Schools don’t.

1. Punishment when implemented correctly often leads to control.

Will punishment control everyone? No, but the vast majority of human beings DO respond to punishment, this isn’t some Ivory Tower theory or anything like that, it is fact. Look at human history and I can show you literally dozens of instances where there were institutionalized systems of punishment that had the goal of societal control and for the large part they were successful for a very long time.

2. Children who do not want to learn DO need control.

You cannot argue that we should let children who refuse to pursue academics just continue to be disruptive and hurt the learning process for those children that do pursue academics.

3. I never said that children who want to learn don’t need controlling.

Most people need some form of control over them. But the children that want to learn are controlled in much different ways.

4. There are people who do not want to learn.

I should have rephrased that originally. By “learn” I don’t mean “learn” in the strictest academic sense. I mean, yesterday I learned how to properly quote a message on this forum. When I was 14 I learned how to smoke a cigarette. When I was 20 I learned how to make around 60 or so cocktails from memory.

Everyone learns every day.

What I was referring to more specifically was academic learning, the study of academic disciplines like mathematics, science, history, and language.

There are indeed certain people that just simply do not want to pursue academics, of any kind. They don’t have a favorite subject, they aren’t forced to study a bunch of things they don’t like, because they dislike EVERYTHING. They don’t want to go to school, they don’t want to be involved in school. They want to hang out with their friends, smoke pot, get drunk et cetra.

I knew many people in High School that went to school, failed virtually every class, then dropped out when they were 16 or 18 (18 if their parents refused to let them drop out at 16.) These kids had no desire to be in school, they would talk about how it was a waste because they already have well paying jobs and finishing High School or going to college is a waste for them.

Probably all these years from now some of them regret that. Some of them aren’t really all that unsuccessful though. I know one who is a construction foreman, one who owns a body shop. I also know one that is still a cashier at a grocery store and tries to support a family on a $7/hour wage.

The post-HS success or failure of these individuals is fairly tangental.

But what isn’t tangental is the fact that these people felt they had no reason to pursue any academic discipline. These people weren’t figments of my imagination, they existed, and still exist. And I’m willing to be you can find thousands of them all over the nation.

agreed. Although the question is, how do we do this? Often there are a ton of ways, but sometimes, ostracizing - eliminating them from the classroom - is the simplest. What do you do with them at that point? Well, that could be up to the creativity and resources of the school. But breaking rocks, making license plates, hard labor, and any other punishment will not change the people. The penalty for missing out on any particular class should be obvious. If it’s not, then the problem is with that particular class.

That’s the only option? Jesus - I’m happy you’re not running any school districts.

Firstly, I’m happy I’m not running any school districts myself, it wasn’t my planned career nor have I ever attempted to pursue such a career.

Secondly, you need to read my posts more carefully from now on. I said the 3 day suspension was the only option because I was applying the rules that certain people in this thread suggested, that the school has no right to hold children after class or outside of class as punishment.

I was saying we were working in a theoretical school system that didn’t have those forms of punishment, so the first form of punishment would probably be kicking the kid out of class for the day and the second would be suspension.

Yeah, and society really pays the price for kicking kids out of school - and it’s a high price. Is this what you want? Doofus.

Again, read my posts more carefully. When I said, “That solved the problem. The class was able to learn, and two children are evicted from school and given absolutely no chance at learning, as an expulsion usually is the end of a High School student’s academic career.” I assumed most intelligent readers would be able to comprehend the sarcasm involved, especially considering the context of the post as a whole.