Apologize for misquoting you. And the answer to that is, “If they want.”
All of this talk of logistics is interesting but is besides the point. Why should those ladies have to pay for their father’s “crimes?” My Dad is a total hawk too. Should I have to enlist? For all we know, they oppose the war.
I’m sick of this retarded idea. Families don’t dole out adults to serve in the military: adults choose to serve. Period. I am in particular offended by the use of this rhetoric by the same left-wing nut-jobs who scorn the military, view those who serve as somehow being stupid or defective, protest or otherwise oppose the presence of ROTC units at elite universities, who, when in office, use military officers as waitrons at White House functions. I’m also sick of GoP plutocrats expressing some sort of faux comaraderie with those who actually serve in the trenches.
I call bullshit on both sides here.
I don’t recall the Democratic congresspeople who voted for the initial action tossing their kids in the blender. I don’t recall the Democrats tossing their adult children into service during any of WJC’s multitudinous military adventures, using the military that he “loathed.”
There isn’t a partisan advantage on either side of the aisle in terms of traditions of military service. It isn’t unusual for families above a certain income or education level to view, with disdain, military service by their immediate family members.
Military service is not a partisan activity. People serve in honor of their values, of their colleagues, of their families. Rendering military service as some sort of bloody referendum or litmus test for partisan politics? Sick. Attempting to leverage political credibility by citing some family member’s service? Despicable.
Franchised adults and their elected officials draw their authority from their constitutional powers, not from some sort of proxy blood sacrifice on the part of a family member … remember the bit about civilian authority over the military? Volunteers choose to serve as adults, and swear or affirm to uphold and protect the Constitution, to defend the nation from enemies foreign and domestic, and to obey the lawful orders of their superiors.
This idiotic straw man is typical of an anti-individual perspective, and treats otherwise autonomous adults as the property of the parents.
Well said Cerberus, but I don’t really agree. Bush is pushing the Iraq “war” as critical to our nations future, the most important challenge facing us right now. But he can’t even convince his own kids to serve in this noble cause. Strangely, virtually no children of politicians are serving. Contrast this to WWII where the children of the rich and powerful (Kennedy, Roosevelt, Bush) served as well as athletes, performers, etc. My father enlisted when he was in his mid 30s and almost all the father’s of the kids I knew growing up served in WWII.
Now if the Bush girls were speaking out against the war that would be one thing, that would at least take some courage. But no, they are off gallivanting around the world having a great time in what is supposed to be a crisis that is worth spending a trillion dollars and 3,000 lives for.
Surely you don’t consider that the daughter(s) of the president get the same treatment as Joe Public’s…do you? I mean, I’m Joe Public myself…and I have a daughter. I don’t notice the Secret Service following her about though.
Famous (or notorious) people are viewed differently than other folks…and different rules apply to them. No idea of course, but I’m guessing that there were other children kidnapped the same year that Lindbergh’s baby son was kidnapped…but I doubt the same level of effort was used to find them, that the same amount of resources were put on the case, or that the public felt the same level of compassion and horror over their deaths…or the same level of outrage over how things turned out.
If you don’t think there would be a huge impact over one of the presidents daughters being captured or killed in Iraq then you (and others in this thread) are living in a fantasy world. The reality is that such an event would have a HUGE impact on the public, as well as a huge impact on our foreign policy.
The whole thing is pure left wing fantasy. In the modern era I seriously doubt that a sitting presidents kids would be ALLOWED to volunteer for combat duty anywhere in the world. The Secret Service would have kittens. And IMHO rightfully so.
Because obviously they ARE different than Joe Public’s daughters of course. Again, my daughter doesn’t have a Secret Service detail to protect her. My job isn’t to run the country.
As for the risks involve let me put it this way. My son was a Marine. He was sent to Iraq and did a tour there. Sure, he was in danger and a target…he has some scars to prove it too. However, he was just another soldier over there. Bush’s daughters however are political targets of vastly more importance (to insurgents and terrorists) than my son was…and thus they would BE targeted with a larger priority than even a general (who have security details btw). Again, you are talking as if this were a fantasy world where as soon as the Bush daughters enlist they become just another soldier, completely anonymous in a sea of their fellow soldiers. That isn’t the case…if they were over in Iraq in a combat role they would be priority targets.
Hell, if they wandered about in the US without a security detail they would be targets…which is why they HAVE a Secret Service detail. :smack: This stuff isn’t rocket science folks…there is a reason that even in the US the family of the President is protected.
:rolleyes: Um…because we live in the real world maybe? Let me put it this way…why did Princess Di’s death in a car crash have such a huge emotional impact on the public…while Joe Public’s daughters death in a car crash didn’t cause nearly a ripple? If you can’t honestly answer that then you will never see why something as traumatic as an American being beheaded (which is going to have an impact on the public in any event) would be magnified several fold if it was a FAMOUS person beheaded…not to mention if it was the Presidents DAUGHTER.
-XT
Even then, though, this was not universal. Both of my grandfathers did not serve in the military during WWII.
General Eisenhower’s son, also a future general, graduated from West Point on…June 6, 1944.
Very interesting.
Everyone in the military is an adult. Every adult has the option to waive Secret Service protection. Even if I’m wrong and they don’t, our imperial president Bush could decree Jenna and Barbara don’t get Secret Service protection while they’re busy fighting a war. A war of such overarching importance that soldiers who volunteered before Bush’s first inauguration are being kept in service against their will.
People in the military can keep a secret. There are thousands of families out there right now who don’t know exactly where their soldiers are located. Soldiers understand the need for secrecy. That’s why they were so pissed at Geraldo for giving away troop movements on television. Every soldier serving with a presidential daughter would know the reason why he or she shouldn’t tell anyone that. Odds are they’d stay stateside anyhow, given their relative uselessness.
Barbara Bush is a pretty common name. I’d wager there’s at least one soldier, marine, seaman, or airman serving right now named Barbara Bush. I don’t think she’s at increased risk of being captured or raped because someone might think she’s related to the president.
Nobody can make anybody else join the military. Jenna and Barbara and the Cheneys and about a thousand other relatives of hawkish politicians might want to join to show just how important this fight is, but they don’t.
Oh, for fuck’s sake.
Bush can’t make his daughter’s join, NOR SHOULD HE. They are adults. As for “Well, Bush says it’s important, so they should join to show how important it is,” that’s just stupid as well.
The fact that their father supports the war is irrelevant. If my father supported the war, would I then be obligated to join, or make my father into a hypocrite? If there were a draft, and Bush’s children were exempt from the draft, then you could argue about hypocricy. If Bush was complaining about how selfish the kids are today, not joining the military, then you could slam him. Except he doesn’t do that.
Slamming Barbara and Jenna because they aren’t in the military is just about the dumbest argument I’ve ever seen on these boards, and I’ve seen some dumb ones. They are only as obligated to serve as everyone else is. And slamming Bush because he didn’t make his daughters join is stupid, because–get this–children are not the personal property of their parents. Bush isn’t a Roman paterfamilias.
If you look in the dictionary next to “strawman” you will see your post next to it. No one has suggested that Bush force his children to join the military. On the other hand, if Bush truly believes that “This war is more than a clash of arms. It is a decisive ideological struggle, and the security of our nation is in the balance” yet still can’t convince his own children (or those of anyone in his cabinet) to joinm, then that is an indication of something.
:rolleyes: You really have no idea what you are talking about, do you?
And you’ve obviously never been in the military either.
Um…perhaps thats because she isn’t the REAL Barbara Bush? Ya think? In the real universe we live in, the Bush daughters (or any high ranking government officials kids) joining the military would be what we who are in touch with reality call…news. And this news thingy, it gets sort of spread around…can’t contain it. I know in your universe this doesn’t happen, but unfortunately in the one the rest of us have to live in it does. Not only that…here is another reality break. If Bush’s daughters were being sent to Iraq, THAT would be this news thingy too.
What does it indicate to you? To me it indicates nothing particularly interesting…unless you are from the loony branch of the left wing of course.
-XT
Let’s see; the president thinks we are facing an enemy that threatens our freedom and security and not one child of anyone in his cabinet thinks it is important enough to enlist. Contrast that to WWII where Roosevelt’s kids, Joe Kennedy’s kids, George Bush, and many others of the rich and powerful joined. Either W is doing a lousy job of persuading his own kids and those of his buddies or they realize it’s just a bunch of BS. If it’s the latter they have an obligation to speak up.
The PRESIDENT thinks a lot of things…does this make them right? I’m not sure what YOUR opinion of that is, but my own is highly skeptical. This of course leaves aside the real reasons most folks actually enlist these days.
Out of curiosity, why do you think its important that the children (how many are we talking about here of military age btw?) of Bush’s cabinet haven’t rushed out to join up? AFAIK, the children of MOST rich and powerful folk haven’t exactly broken records to rush off and enlist in most modern wars. Be officers maybe, but enlist as common soldiers/sailors? :dubious:
That was a different era…before my own time and I’m fairly old. 
We had this little thing called ‘Vietnam’ in between that sort of changed things. Recall for a moment what Bush himself did in Vietnam…and contrast that to what his daddy did in WWII. Bit of a difference there…and a deeper insight (IMHO) into a sea change in how the rich and powerful in this country perceive their duties to said country.
I believe you excluded a number of more viable positions in your attempt to paint things ‘black’ or ‘white’. Perhaps you should look a bit deeper…lets say to things that happened BEFORE Bush. Did the rich and powerful’s offspring leap at the chance to server in, say Bosnia? Did Clinton do a ‘lousy job of persuading’ his buddies in the cabinet and other powerful friends to ignite their kids to rush off? Or perhaps things have changed a bit in the US since WWII? What do you think?
-XT
I think what everyone is forgetting is this:
There is no way in aitch-e-double-hockey-sticks that the Twins could pass the drug test.
(That is my OPINION of course, before someone screams at me. But seriously? No way. Not on the first try.)
How old are you? 10? The Bush Twins would be in massive danger in Iraq. They’re the children of the president of the United States, for Christ’s sake. Terrorists would target them to hurt Bush. And if they were captured, then their captors would be in a position to blackmail the president. The only way the military would ever use them is in some sort of ceremonial unit, or a morale-boosting compaign, or something like that. And it would almost certainly be stationed in the US, or possibly Europe.
Let’s be honest for a moment here: does anyone in this thread – even one single person – think that Jenna and Barbara Bush are the sort of people who are cut out for the military?
Quite frankly, I think certain people just like to jack off to the thought of President Bush’s children dying.
Eh, last ime I checked, the Bush daughter’s job wasn’t to run the country either.
This is a republic, not an monarchy. Let them serve.
I was sooooo hoping I could lure some schmuck into this argument. Why yes, I was in the military for six years. Let me make you a little challenge. Find out for me what unit Jim Webb’s son is in and where exactly that unit is located. We already know it’s Ramadi, Iraq. What unit is it? Where exactly are they stationed? Find someone who will say he’s in the same unit. What is young Jim Webb’s exact job description?
Obviously we’re never going to know what would happen if a Bush daughter enlisted, because nobody remotely connected to Bush’s adminstration is going to join up, now or ever, because they value they’re precious Republican hides too highly and want people like me and my ex and my friends to do the dirty work for them. But I still maintain that someone who was dedicated to the idea of serving our country in a military capacity could join the military and serve with valor without the press reporting on her every move.
I am forty-one and I served my country for six years in the Army. Of course, that was when we had a president who didn’t use terms like “evildoers.”
I met a lot of people in the military who started out with disadvantages but became good soldiers due to training and experience. I’m sure that Jenna and Barbara would make perfectly good file clerks or data entry people, or they could hand out canteens and web belts just fine.
Nobody’s trying to get them killed, what a thing to say! That’s like saying that President Bush wants your son or daughter to join the military to get killed. You don’t suppose he wants that, do you?
I think the Bush daughters should be forced to join. I also think that Mary Cheney should be forced to become a heterosexual.