Three questions please.
1- Should a president be able to indicted for suspected crimes that has clear evidence of such?
2 - Should a president be able to be arrested for obvious crimes that where in full view and undeniable.
3 - Is the President of the United States above the law.
1 Of course.
2 Absolutely.
3 Of couse not. If anything, he should be bound by law more than anyone.
What they all said.
Does “should” here mean “according to the law as it stands”, or “according to the law as it should be”? In either event, the President is not above the law, but one can make a strong case that under the law as it stands now, he cannot be indicted or arrested by federal agents against his will. Under this interpretation, if a President breaks federal law, impeachment is the sole recourse. This is in fact my own interpretation of the law as it stands, though I’ll admit that this argument is weakened by the precedent of President Grant’s arrest, and I wouldn’t mind seeing this theory put to a definitive test.
Under state law, meanwhile, he’s no different from any other citizen.
Come on, you know it’s true!
This. It’s not how it should be, but that’s how it works. Party is what matters, not the law.
(Edit: never mind)
Are you sure about this? Let’s say that in 2013, Obama is visiting Podunk County, Missabama and is seen on video cameras dropping a water bottle on the ground.
A few days later, the deputies from that county show up to the White House gates with a littering indictment and demand that Obama be released to their custody.
The Secret Service has a good laugh and one even says that he will pay the citation. Oh no, they are told. In that county, he must be booked, fingerprinted, and see a judge before he can post bond. Plus littering carries a potential penalty of a $500 fine or 5 days in jail at the discretion of the judge.
Under your view, must Obama go and be booked?
1 and 2 yes.
But Presidents shouldn’t be indictable or arrestable for anything less than clear and obvious criminality, because dishonest political parties will constantly use this as a tool otherwise.
But your question 3 and your thread title are different, and it’s confusing. I think Presidents should not be above the law. I think current law is debatable, to the extent that the current administration is trying to keep Trump above the law, for example by saying Presidents can’t be indicted and are out of reach of the Judicial branch of the government, but also stonewalling Congress to keep the President out of reach of the Legislative branch. And, very sadly, I think Trump himself actually IS above the law, because he’s powerful and rich and white. More specifically, I think it’s very likely that he’s broken a slew of laws along the way, and I think it’s very likely he will escape criminal legal action as long as he’s President. If he’s engaged in criminal activity and the law can’t touch him, then he’s above the law. Nixon was above the law, too, being pardoned for the sake of the country, as though the country could not handle keeping a President accountable to the law.
They would mail Obama, or me a citation to be paid. And he would pay it. Done.
The ability to pardon people is weird. I think it should be changed that no one elected to office or appointed by such an officer can be pardoned for crimes. That would actually help drain the swamp.
I detest Trump, but it makes sense to me that a president ought not be indicted. He should be impeached. At that point, he can be indicted, or when he leaves office. I think it is otherwise too likely to be abused.
Again, looking past this particular moment, the whole point of pardon power is to have a last failsafe against the system going wonky–and for the last failsafe to be biased toward freedom, not the state’s power.
If he killed Melania, he needs to be impeached before he is arrested? OK… And if the Senate refuses to impeach? There are some VERY bright lines in the rule of law, you don’t seem to care if he crosses them.
Look around you. The system has gone wonky. We have a crook in the oval office. I agree for pardons for some poor smuc that gets railroaded by the likes of Sheriff Apiro. But there is thought that Trump could pardon himself. That’s just fucked up.
Of course I care. But I don’t want every Democratic president indicted within 30 days of taking office. I’m okay with delaying justice up to 8 years if need be.
And yes, its fucked up that the president can pardon people who did illegal things on his behalf. But I thonk the bias should be toward freeing the innocent, not punishing the guilty.
Yes, what she said.
It’s important to realize the DoJ’s position on not being able to indict a sitting President isn’t something they decided just now to protect Trump. It’s no accident the Constitution specifies impeachment as the sole remedy for official misconduct. It’s to prevent members of the government from jailing their opponents for political reasons. It’s the same reason members of Congress are not subject to arrest when they are traveling to or from the Capitol.
And, to answer the question in the OP:
If you don’t like the law as it currently stands, lobby Congress to change it.
Of course, since you obviously don’t trust Congress, that might be a problem. Most people realize that Trump would be impeached and convicted in a heartbeat if he actually murdered somebody. Based on what you have written, you seem to have a pathological distrust of this country’s overall political process.
The whole fucking problem is it’s political. Answer the question. If Trump murdered Melania, must he be impeached before being arrested? And if our dear political crooks in the Senate refuse to impeach? Then what? Wait 8 years is your solution?
I’m fine with him not being impeached for screwing porn stars, though if he was a democrat he would have been drawn and quartered for that. Ya know ‘family values’. It’s not illegal to cheat on your wife. It is illegal to use campaign funds to pay for their silence.
So, the president commits a crime, or perhaps many, and it’s ok to wait 8 years to deliver justice. AND he can be pardoned if they are federal crimes. To you then, the president is king. It’s good to get a base line. Thanks.