Should the rest of the world help ‘The Coalition’?

I have not seen anyone advocating that France and other countries not help out if the USA cedes control over to the UN and France has certainly said they would help if this condition is met. Who are these liberal fuck-ups who would not help if the USA cedes control to the UN? I have not seen any.

I have not seen anybody criticize the soldiers themselves, except in cases where they were clearly at fault. But the whole problem would not exist if the soldiers had stayed in Camp Lejeune because the Iraqis had no intention of invading Camp Lejeune. The blame is not for the soldiers but for those who sent them from Camp Lejeune to Iraq where they, most obviously, do not belong.

DanielWithrow is IMHO completely correct.

The countries that did not support GWB’s war are not sitting around saying “we won’t help you now, so neener neener”.
They are interested in peace, stability, and helping rebuild Iraq.

The nub of the problem is that they do not want to help if they will be controlled by U.S. authority. The US leadership has not exactly made some great foreign policy decisions lately, hmmmm? So WHY ON EARTH, would be put our troops under US command, and write a blank cheque to the wealthiest nation on earth??? How has the leadership of the US earned our trust and respect lately??

Putting the rebuilding of Iraq under UN leadership is the only way to go. Yes, the US will be a major player. But you’ve gotta admit… The US military leadership has not shown that it is the best choice for rebuilding a country.

What is holding things back? As far as I can tell, the US administration is.

Some of you people just don’t get it. The more power Bush cedes, the more likely this will be seen as the highpoint of the first empire of the capitalist era and after which it began to wane. This is that important.

He cannot allow control of the supply of oil to pass into Iraqi hands until he knows they’re politically and economically tied to the US from here ‘til eternity and need a US presence for ‘security reasons’.

Sure, he’s in trouble at home but Cheney and Co don’t want to go down in history as the ones who allowed the plug to be pulled.

Conversely, the powers within the UN – not something apparently called the ‘UN’ by people in this thread - capable of bailing out Bush are led by France and Germany; the very same two architects of opposition to this empire through the Euro and other world-wide efforts to offer an alternative to the post-Berlin Wall single 800 lb gorilla.

It’s hardly in the interests of their long-term goals to support US control of the Iraqi oil. Maybe they will, but the price they extract will be as high as they think they can set. The words ‘Elf’ and ‘contracts’ come to mind.
It’s hardly in the interests of their long-term goals to support US control of the Iraqi oil. Maybe they will, but the price they extract will be as high as they think they can set it. The words ‘Elf’ and ‘contracts’ come to mind.

sorry for the . . .
sorry for the . . .

sailor, you missed Not In Anger’s stinker about the supposed foolishness of allies getting within a thousand-mile radius of “those cross-eyed ‘troops’.”

I suppose it’s easy to be dismissive of that sort of moronic drool-- and it’s certainly not representative of any of the other participants in this thread, as far as I can tell.

While I’m not above taking a poke at the unfortunate (and probably avoidable) friendly fire incidents, I guess anyone who characterizes what is arguably the best-equipped and most ably-trained standing army on the planet as totally inept and hazardous is worthy of a pointed ignorin’.

So never mind.

Well, I couldn’t help but notice that you did not, in fact, pointedly ignore me, as a number of other posters also did not, so I must be on to something, kind friend.

There’s still a bit of sensitivity here regarding the friendly fire incident in Afghanistan. The one where Canadians, recently arrived, were conducting live fire exercises in an area clearly designated for that purpose, had duly informed the US forces that this was occurring, but were nevertheless blown to Smithereens, resulting in four deaths and a number of injuries. I understand there is still controversy about that incident in terms of its causes, etc., and I don’t mean to throw aspersions in any given direction. Just saying there’s a sensitivity.

You can hardly read a newspaper on any given day without reading about some completely innocent Iraqi family being decimated for driving their car too near a check point that they can’t see in the dark. Two days ago, it was nine Iraqi police officers mistakenly killed by US forces while in hot pursuit of a criminal. I have to assume, and please correct me if I’m wrong, but I have to assume that Iraqi police officers wear uniforms.

I am not going to try to say anything sarcastic here, just pointing out the news reports that form the background to the opinion that I stated.

And, technically, I did not speak of allies, but my mother-in-law.

The US military has a reputation for friendly fire incidents. I can’t recall off the top of my head any instances of friendly fire casualties committed by the forces of other nations. That said, I do accept that there have almost certainly been such instances somewhere, sometime, and probably incidents perpetrated by the US receive greater publicity, and of course the US does tend to have the greatest firepower which gives greater probability of this problem.

Nonetheless, with power comes responsibility, and while I would be interested to read a statistical analysis of their record over the years, I get the firm impression (and I think that it is at least debatable) that the US has a very poor record when it comes to killing friendlies, and staying well away from US troops in a warzone (even as an ally)is probably a very good idea.

If you want to argue the point rationally and convince me that US troops’ reputation for friendly fire is undeserved, then fine. But righteous indignation as if they are simply beyond criticizm is a piss poor effort at rebuttal. Not in Anger’s “cross eyed” comment was clearly hyperbole, but so far his underlying point has not been refuted.

And another thing. I get sick of this “untouchable” attitude towards the troops on the ground. You can question shrub, you can rail at the top brass, but criticize the grunts and some people act like you’re making the baby jesus cry. These are not conscripts. They wanted to join the military. They wanted to be the bullets in the gun in the fist at the end of the long arm of US foreign policy. If they didn’t know that was going to involve them in questionable acts of violence, they’re stupid and/or know no history. The’re the subject of much adulation when they do something worthy, which presumably suggests that they have a degree of personal responsibility for what they do. Why it would be suggested that they are not personally responsible when they do something unworthy, I am not sure.

And puhlease don’t give me that shit about me not being in a position to criticize because they may save me and my family some day. Sure they may. And when they do, credit to them where (and when) credit is due. But no one gets a free pass.

Besides which, in all honesty I do not sleep better at night because of the US and Australian militaries’ efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan: quite the opposite. Going into why that would be is an issue for another thread (and a topic that has been discussed plenty already) but the idea that I should somehow be grateful for the US and Australian militaries’ efforts, and refrain from criticizing them, sticks in my fucking craw let me tell you.

I can see the future. I predict there’s gonna be some really nasty responses to that, Princhester. :wink:

Can’t say that I disagree with what you said, just that sometimes it’s safer not to call a spade a spade. :slight_smile:

Princhester, I must say that I’m surprised to see apparent support for a position with I had considered to be unsupportable. I don’t consider that I made a piss-poor effort of rebutting Not In Anger’s comment, in that I actually made no effort in that direction, since I considered it to be idiotic on the face of it, and therefore hardly requiring any arguing against.

Your post is something else altogether. I think that, for the most part, you and I are likely to see pretty much eye-to-eye on everything about this situation that matters, quite apart from Not In Anger’s dickheadedness or sensibility.

As I see it, U.S. friendly-fire incidents, while certainly troubling when considered in-and-of-themselves, are not a defining characteristic of the U.S. military, and their relevance to the whole Iraq debacle are insignificant. My objection to Not In Anger’s comment is that he suggests that having the U.S. as an ally in any military conflict represents more of a liability than an asset, and further that this is the fault of the troops.

I’m the last guy you’ll find arguing that these incidents of fratricide are acceptable, but it’s ignorant and offensive to lay the blame for them on the troops. I suspect that one of the main reasons that the U.S. racks up such a high collateral damage score is that so much of the ordinance that’s flying is courtesy of the U.S. – those guys aren’t miserly with their implements of destruction, and they can’t be faulted for that. Of course, there’s obviously an element of human error involved when that hardware is directed where it ought not to go. But where do we lay the blame for these errors? I don’t think that this is because American troops aren’t quite as bright as Canadian, British, Australian, or Swazi troops – rather I think that it’s institutional procedural problems. The misplaced sense of economy that sees folks in action for much longer than is strictly advisable, relying on issued amphetamines to combat fatigue, is a pretty good example of something that goes against all common sense. Sure, “go-pills” might be useful if extended periods of activity are absolutely unavoidable, but mandating speed for people in control of fighter/bombers is lunacy. I wouldn’t trust a tweaker to park my car, and I sure as hell don’t want to be standing in front of one who’s armed with an air-rifle, much less several million dollars worth of military hardware. But this isn’t the troops fault – it’s not like they can say, “I’d rather not take the drugs, sir, since they make me twitchy and seem to impair my judgement.”

In short, their troops are just as good as our troops, and much better equipped. While it may be argued that it’s a bit of a crapshoot to be proximate to U.S. troops for any length of time, I think that the benefits of the greatly reduced numbers of hostiles chucking ordinance in your direction outweigh the risks of becoming another blue/blue statistic by several orders of magnitude.

I hope that you don’t think that I am suggesting any such thing. I think that the invasion and occupation of Iraq is an appalling disgrace.

However, if U.S. troops should ever find themselves involved a just war, I’d certainly hope that Canadian troops would be right there to support them in it, and in the event that the Commonwealth were ever in clear and present danger from an aggressor, I’d sure as hell be grateful to have U.S. forces as allies. I should think that would be obvious.

Ah, and Desmo, if you’re wondering why my tone is so civil, it’s because it’s almost 3:00am here, and I’ve had a few, and this tends to make me exceeding polite.

G’night all.

Impressive post, Larry. Good night. :slight_smile:

I agree and it is the US government who is responsible for how US forces are trained and how they operate. US forces are very trigger-happy as we can see from any number of incidents where they shoot first and don’t bother to ask questions later. I recall the firing from the air at night on some vehicles which could have been some fleeing Iraqis but turned out to be plain people going about their business. They were no threat to anybody but the US forces fired and killed a few.

The fact that the US military routinely covers up these incident in their “investigations” just adds to the irresponsibility. In general nobody is found to be at fault or only minimally so. I remember the incident of the firing on the Palestine hotel in Baghdag which killed two news reporters. The result of the official “investigation” was a farce and was denounced as such by pretty much all the media and reporting agencies. It was clear the USA had no interest in the truth coming out and in preventing similar things from happeneing in the future.

As has been said, innocent Iraqis are probably dying every day by the dozen but their deaths just go unreported.

American soldiers in Iraq are a conglomerate who behave as they have been taught to behave. If an individual soldier commits acts which are unlawful (like we saw with the destruction of the Baghdag airport) then that soldier is personally very clearly responsible but what is happening in Iraq is that the US forces, as a whole, are behaving very dangerously and they are in a difficult, dangerous and volatile situation where they are in danger every day and it is understandable that they would shoot first even if at risk of hitting innocents. The blame for all this is for the government who trained them to behave like that, who gave them orders to behave like that, who put them in that situation of danger where they need not be and who covers up the incidents where innocents have died. Mostly the soldiers in Iraq are victims of a misguided policy no less than the Iraqis or the reporters who are dying.

Which is my point. No one was rebutting him, people seemed rather to just have the attitude that his post was beyond the pale without saying why.

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Agreed.

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Look I think you’re erecting a bit of a straw man here. I’ve just read over Not in Anger’s posts and I just can’t see how you get all this meaning out of them. Never did he suggest that friendly fire was the US military’s defining characteristic. Never did he say that they were more of a liability than an asset in a military conflict. He seems like a bit of a wally, he could do with a chill pill or fourteen, but let’s be fair to the guy.

He did say that this was the fault of the troops but I am yet to hear an utterly convincing argument that, to at least a significant degree, it is not. If you want to go over all the incidents and explain how they are all or mostly a result of soldiers being put in impossible positions for which they are not trained, go ahead. But until you have made that argument, stop pretending that the argument is beyond doubt.

I’ll start you off: yes, there have been some incidents recently which have involved US soldiers getting into hot water in civil situations. What about the spate of incidents in Serbia and this and the last gulf war in which US pilots in military battles for which they are supposed to be perfectly trained have shot up civilians and allies?

And are you going to tell be that the grunt attitude towards “towelheads” or “sand niggers” in this war doesn’t make it just that bit easier to not care too much when pulling the trigger on the civilians? I’ve heard chopper pilots from the Vietnam war talk shamefacedly about door gunners who would casually wipe out Vietnamese working the rice paddies as target practice, they were just a “bunch a goddamn gooks”, after all. Whose fault is that? Have troops become Sensitive New Age Guys since then? Feh.

I saw an in depth analysis of the friendly fire incident in the last gulf war in which a US pilot wiped out a British troop carrier. The pilot was worried the war was going to end before he got some kills. He was so anxious about that he ignored all the warnings and information available that he was nowhere near the enemy tanks he was supposed to be targeting, saw a troop carrier and went for it, so keen to kill someone he didn’t stop and think.

Whose fault?

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People make it to fighter pilot after years of trying. They badly want to be there, they are smart, capable people. Don’t kid yourself it isn’t personally important to them to rack up kills and see action. And dont kid yourself they are entirely unwilling pawns.

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Probably true during the war phase. Right now I think the presence of US troops is palpably upping the violence ante.

Oh, and Desmo this is nothing: you should hear me do my “Anzacs at Gallipoli were a bunch of warmongering invaders not larrikin heroes” schtick at Anzac day barbies. Talk about pile on! :wink:

That’s what happened with december: when you continually make an ass out of yourself people cease to take you seriously even when your post may have some merit. Check out this thread: Not In Anger, isn’t it time you got wished into the cornfield?. I believe the answer is to be found there and not that his posts in this thread may not have a grain of truth.