seal_cleaner what do you believe is the appropriate attitude towards “friendly fire” incidents?
Are they acceptable? Are they caused by cross eyed soldiers? Are they caused by ill training? What exactly could anyone say on this topic that would keep you happy?
I’m not convinced that anything will be better under the UN unless you have American military power supporting in. Does the UN have the commitment to rebuild Iraq once blue-helmets start getting blown up by RPGs?
Why? Because you think she might make sweet sweet love to them all night long? Idiot.
Number of proven instances of US troops making sweet sweet love to people’s mother in law in Iraq so far: 0
Number of proven instances of US troops killing unarmed non-threatening locals and allies in this war so far: more than anyone in the US Forces would care to admit.
There are several really curly questions regarding some truly questionable comments on your part awaiting your answer in this thread, msmith537.
Until you’ve answered them, you’re in no position to be calling anyone else an idiot.
I find this entire conversation silly, and do not expect to be contradicted by a Canadian. Invading other countries for no reason whatsoever, and slaughtering men, women and children is… pretty assholish.
I do not for a moment believe the US govt represents the US people.
Man, these threads have gotten to be one huge liberal circle-jerk.
Just thought some folks might like to see the latest Dykes To Watch Out For.
Another incisive rational comment from the conservatives. Right up there with msmith’s talk of making love to mother in laws.
Who says the American military shouldn’t support it? The American military leaders got us into this mess; the American military is essential to getting us out of the mess. However, the American military needs to be working in a UN-headed coalition. Other folks aren’t going to put themselves under US control, and that’s why we have the United Nations, so that nobody is putting themselves under the control of another sovereign nation.
Daniel
Acceptable? No they’re tragic but inevitable. Happens in every war. But - there’s no good way to fight a bad war. Our forces are ill-equipped and undermanned, on an ill-defined mission for which they were not properly trained. When I hear of an iraqui civilian death, I grieve for the citizen who unfairly lost his life, AND for the US soldier who has been betrayed by shrub & co., who hold the mideast distributorship for cannon fodder.
WTF is “joozhing”?
Oh, and back on topic - I hope the US gets some help, but I sure don’t blame other nations for being reluctant. shrub is an arrogant bully who refuses to admit the slightest miscalcualtion.
Imagine some other nation goes and shits all over its litterbox - for example, Indonesia invading East Timor, against the wishes of the UN. It does it anyway. Shit everywhere. Does the UN walk away from the crisis? Of course not; it goes and cleans up the mess. Same should apply here.
Well, from my limited experience with Ogre’s posts (e.g., the recent Alabama vote thread), i get the impression that he is not quite the conservative that you seem to imagine, particularly on fiscal issues. His position on the Alabama vote was quite similar to that of The Nation magazine, and you won’t get many irrational conservatives ever admitting that.
That said, i think you’re being rather unfair here, Ogre. Firstly, the fact that just about the whole national political scene in the United States right now is one big conservative circle-jerk means that we leftists and liberals have to go somewhere for our masturbation sessions. 
Secondly, the OP asked asked a very reasonable question, to which were given quite a variety of responses, even by liberals.
Some liberals apparently think the UN should ignore Bush altogether and let him fix his mess by himself. Others, including me, think that the UN should go in, as long as the United States relinquishes control to the international body. And still others seem to believe that the UN should help out any way it can, even if this means leaving control in US hands. Hardly the sort of unanimous ranting i would associate with a circle-jerk.
Admittedly, some people have used some rather intemperate phrasing, and a fair amount of hyperbole, but that certainly hasn’t been restricted to the liberals in the thread. If you’re really as concerned about the quality of debate in the thread as you imply, why not making an intelligent contribution instead of just driving by and effectively calling everyone wankers?
You’re absolutely right.
But the UN certainly didn’t put Indonesia in charge of the cleanup operation. And nor should it allow the US to be in control of UN forces in Iraq.
Actually, I’m not interested in other countries helping the US, and I think if we ask them to help us, we’ll get shot down. I want other countries to help Iraq, and we should make it clear that we’ll be one amongst many countries engaged in such help. We won’t be in charge: the effort will initially be headed by the UN, but will be turned over to Iraqis as quickly as possible.
Daniel
Hey, let’s get off mother-in-laws…(do I need to finish the joke?)
Unless you have family in Iraq or have served in the military
Yeah…that’s what we are doing. We are indescriminately slaughtering woman and children. We invaded the Middle Eastern equivalent of Luxemburg, toppled it’s benevolent ruler and are busy making off with all it’s treasures.
I’m with DanielWithrow. The rest of the world should step in to help Iraq rebuild. The UN can even lead the effort as far as I’m concerned PROVIDED that they can establish a legitimate Iraqi government, not create a permenant international wellfare state.
What is truly sad is that so many of these liberal fuck-ups would rather let millions suffer just to spite Bush.
Forgot to finsih my thought
Unless you have family in Iraq or have served in the military, I don’t believe you have the right to criticize the training or tactics of our soldiers who are have to operate in volatile and dangerous conditions. I wonder how quick you would be to hold your fire if a carload of armed people came speeding at you. It’s not like there’s a little glowing icon over everone’s head that says “Enemy” or “Friendly”.
Fair enough, mhendo. I am indeed not a toe-the-line conservative by any stretch of the imagination, but I suppose it was rather penile of me to dick up a thread with a trolling comment.
I seem to be apologizing more than I’m posting these days. Time to lay off the coffee and Righteous Indignation Pills.
You agree with me? Freaky…
I even agree that it’s fucked up to let millions suffer just to spite Bush. Of course, on the other side are the conservative fuck-ups who would rather let millions suffer just to spite France, would rather not get the job done than let American troops be under UN leadership – which is obviously a necessary position if we don’t want to be left alone in Iraq.
Shit. The compromise I’m proposing would, if Bush carried it off, make him look like a master statesman. It’d be a win-win-win situation. Do I like imagining Bush pulling off a PR coup like that? Hell no. But it has got to happen: the alternative is too ugly to consider, and it’s what’s going on right now.
Daniel
As much as I hate bush and the war, I have to agree with that. We’re there, we toppled him, now we gotta try to make it right with as little suffering as possible.
BTW, most of the democratic candiates seem to support staying. Don’t think there’s a lot of “cut and run” sentiment on the hill.