Should "They Were Asking For It"-style rape denial be a moddable offence?

I’m waffling about this. The position of the poster in question is repugnant, but as already noted he’s in the right forum for repugnant views and repugnant phrasing of those views, and not obviously trolling or breaking any current rules. Believing something that is deeply unpopular is not in itself a reason to be modded or banned.

On the other hand, there are ways to discuss those views that are not obviously jerkish. So really the only question is whether the individual in question - and, to be fair, those responding to him including me - are being jerks to an extent not permitted in the Pit. The rule exists; it’s just a question of whether it’s being violated, which is what the mods have already been discussing.

Personally I’m inclined to say “not yet”, but it’s getting mighty close to the line.

The Pit is not the “Give any and all bigotry free rein” forum.

If anything, I’ve seen way more repugnant views expressed in GD and IMHO over the years than in BBQ.

I’m also waffling about the position in general. However, his reply to the person who was actually raped was certainly moddable, in my opinion. That was really “being a jerk”.

People are jerks all the time in the Pit, of course, but that one was over the top.

I’d forgotten about that one. Yeah, I agree on that point. I was thinking more about his general advocacy for his viewpoint.

Could you link to that post please, I’ll bump it up to the Mod Loop.

BigT already did, but here it is again:

I don’t think this should be a bannable offense or anything, but a note or warning seems appropriate.

Thanks, I bumped it up. Sorry BigT, I was just glancing through this thread as I have to head out and missed your post.

I’m having a little trouble figuring out exactly what @split_p_j’s position is in that thread. The portion you quoted, @RitterSport and @BigT, is basically as the OP stated, and since it was directed at a poster, I tend to agree it should be moddable under the rules as they are now.

But @split_p_j also seems to be making the argument that the women in the Cosby case (presumably all of them) consented to sex, then consented to taking the drugs, then had sex, and then got mad about it and changed their story after it didn’t help their careers. It’s a weird argument that doesn’t seem to be supported by the facts, but I don’t think it’s a violation of any rules.

And lastly - the very fact that he seems to glide back-and-forth between “they explicitly consented to sex before taking the drugs” and “even having a first drink is implicit consent to anything that happens later” makes me question the actual earnestness with which he holds the position. I’m not as convinced as everyone else that there’s no trolling going on.

Oh trust me, not everyone is convinced of that either.

This is a picture perfect example of what’s wrong with having the Pit. When the board allows posters to use any insults of any wording against other posters yet then suddenly rears back and says, well, not those insults, confusion about the line is inevitable. Being a jerk is existentially part of the Pit. Having after-the-fact gradations of jerkiness in the Pit is Orwellian doublethink. There are Pit rules about what is impermissible. The word “jerk” is nowhere mentioned. Hate speech is banned, but the references are to slurs. Does this qualify as a slur? Not in normal English, but when everything is undefined, who knows?

Now, do I think what split_p_j said was jerkiness? Certainly I do. Do I want the mods to issue warnings for jerkiness? Absolutely.

But they don’t. Jerkiness is not moderated here, even outside the Pit. My reporting of jerks is shrugged off. Only organized campaigns protesting the treatment of certain groups creates enough pressure to issue belated rules. Meanwhile, the “don’t be a jerk” rule is violated daily with impunity.

The Pit is unworkable in its current form. I stay out of it for that reason, so I recognize I have little say in any decisions made about it. Once you mods figure out what constitutes jerkiness in the Pit, though, you need to start applying it everywhere because that problem is all pervasive.

I don’t see how “you were asking to be raped is any worse” than many of the other insults that are allowed in the Pit. Since the pit is where you go to the attack the poster not the post I don’t see anything wrong here.

It is. Because it is shaming someone for going through something horrific. It’s not some nebulous “you are an idiot” or “you suck” kind of insult. It is victim-blaming for something that actually happened to them. It’s as if someone posted how they lost a child who suffocated in a crib and someone else accuses that person of being a terrible parent. That’s waaaay beyond a standard Pit comment.

There are other insults in the Pit that aren’t allowed. You can’t attack someone for their race for example. (I’ve seen that modded recently.) It’s not a 100% “anything goes” place.

Yeah, I agree. The quote above is flat-out victim blaming. I’m not sure whether the rules of the Pit give free rein to all speech like that.

But I think that there’s also some merit to the idea that your actions can contribute to the likelihood or potential severity of bad situations, without necessarily doing any victim-blaming. For example, leaving your car door unlocked in a public parking lot is not smart, regardless of whether or not someone steals your stereo. It doesn’t somehow let thieves off the hook- they chose to steal, but it also is evidence that you didn’t necessarily exercise customary and proper precautions to prevent theft either, which isn’t the same thing as victim-blaming.

I think that’s where the moddable offense comes in; if it’s clearly victim blaming then maybe, but if it’s something less than that, probably not.

Exactly. Many things go on in the Pit that are totally unacceptable- accusing someones dead father of breaking the law for example.

I think those posts are horrible and would be cause for a warning or even suspension … outside the Pit. But complaining about stuff IN the Pit is useless.

The Pit needs to be brought in line with the rules in the other forums. No being a jerk, no personal insults, etc. It has to end.

But until then, the complaint by the OP is meaningless. “Forget it Jake, it’s the Pit.”

Flat out Victim blaming is even OK in GD. Note that posters want victims who have had their guns stolen to be sued and even imprisoned. Now sure, that is not nearly as bad as rape victim blaming, but it is still victim blaming, and it is common- for that issue and others.

Bring up Charlie Hebdo and watch some of the same people who posted in this thread fall over themselves to be the first to explain why 12 people were asking to be murdered.

Either it’s all OK or none of it is. If you don’t want people to say controversial or provocative things then get rid of the debate forum and the forum entirely devoted to yelling at each other. This is not a flippant “thought experiment” type point, I actually think it should be done.

If we want to retain female posters, it should absolutely be bannable. That was beyond “being a jerk.”

I agree. Outside of the Pit.

Until the Pit is a place for decent human discourse, then nothing can be done.

Although I despise victim blaming there is some truth to ‘when you wrestle with a pig…’, so 'when you read Pit posts…

Let us bring the Pit back to normal rules, and then enforce it.

We’ll have to agree to disagree. Calling someone a murder after they’ve lost their child or a whore after they’ve been raped is truly terrible. But it is only a slight mater of degree from calling someone a murder for wanting to own guns or for having an abortion. Or calling someone who is anti Israel an nazi.

Of course, I don’t think we should have eliminated racial insults in the pit either so I’m clearly in the minority.

That’s fair, this is all just opinion.

We have standards in the pit as well. If you want to keep women on this board, rape apologists and victim blamers need to leave. If you don’t want to keep women on this board, the board can end in a friendly circle jerk while a few of you understand why the women have fled over the years.