Relevant case law. I don’t think the Governor can refuse extradition, as long as the paperwork is in order, unless he’s already serving time in Florida.
Regarding Self-Pardoning:
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Pardons are an admission of guilt. Alger Hiss rejected any kind of pardon because he believed attacks on his political beliefs were invalid; he was later readmitted to the state bar and able to resume legal practice. Now, I firmly believe Trump is fully willing to fudge this one, try to have it both ways, but as a general point this can be a ‘forfeit’ and a ‘screwover’ on its own, as other courts could simply say “you said you’re guilty”.
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Pardons work at the same level as the crimes. The irony is not lost on me that New York City and New York State can’t stand Trump. So, assuming Trump decides to embroil Mike Pence in a gigantic scandal (and Pence doesn’t backstab him, which would ALSO be interesting) this only gets the federal charges.
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I think it’s pretty evident that the founding fathers had no intention of creating a ‘king’ and the use of a self-pardon should fall in any fair hearing of constitutional intent. If the President were pardoning a class of people that includes himself, over a specific narrow grounds (federal crimes related to drug policy, LGBT Orientation, cultural concerns), that could stand. It should be clear that Trump is well outside any such grounds.
A few other thoughts.
Yes. Trump needs to be prosecuted. SDNY comes to mind, but frankly congressional subpoenas would also be in play. Some particularly egregious things, like family separation, instigating violence and directly causing COVID deaths probably merit a hard look at the facts. Biden’s place in this is to let this happen, not as partisan politics but as a fair arbiter that provides legitimacy and fairness to the process.
The brutal truth is that Trump will likely get into serious trouble with debt servicing. This isn’t the grounds I’d really want to go after Trump, since people tend to reflexively decide “IRS = Bad” and while I understand financial crimes can be as cruel and devastating as physical actions, many people don’t see it that way. But those outstanding debts are likely complex affairs; these are being lent to a man with four bankruptcies. Trump hasn’t run a balanced book for years and so when the money runs out, odd actors might very well come forward and–since paying a debt secretly is a bargain not being honored–publicly demand the money, and start using various laws to get that money. There’s an element of ‘you guys knew who you were lending to, come on’, but Trump does deserve to be held accountable for those debts, even if the lender is a scary KGB Lieutenant Colonel.
About the only thing I’d say no here is for Biden to get dirty. He shouldn’t, and he doesn’t have to. And there may be a problem where too many people want Trump for too many causes–by the time the FEC gets to him for illegal campaign contributions he’s probably already serving life. But why not? The FEC should get their turn too.
That Newsweek piece includes some some iffy examples to pad it out. Like:
In 1897, an unnamed governor whom newspapers identified only as a “popular statesman” boasted about his having pardoned himself.
Or the gov who wanted to spend two nights in prison to study conditions there, then pardoned himself to get out early. (So, probably a publicity stunt, right?) Or the one who did it by accident. Or Orville Faubus — “reportedly … details are unclear.” Okay…
And it’s one mayoral self-pardon cited in the article.
Only one of the examples given seems terribly serious, and it’s the governor of Washington territory in 1856.
The article does include some quotes from legal scholars making the arguments that these historical examples are trivial and that Presidents may not pardon themselves. (As well as arguments taking the other position.)
Note that the potential Trump crimes being pursued in New York are largely financial crimes, and those are often prosecuted as civil rather than criminal cases. So none of the discussions about pardons at any level applies there.
Also, it may not be important if New York can extract Trump from Florida. It’s possible that civil cases may be brought against Trump’s companies or Trump’s properties located in NY, rather than against Trump himself. And the outcome of such cases may be that the state impounds Trump’s properties. They may not need to have Trump around in person for any of that.
Trump may flee to Florida. But he can’t take Trump Tower with him.
I think at least some of the charges involve tax fraud, since it seems the Trump companies were more or less keeping two sets of books. I think lying to a lender may be a criminal charge.
However, given how the Trump properties are losing money. Trump might like to have them taken away - depending on the state of the mortgages on them.
I’ve been under the impression that even those kinds of cases might be brought as either civil or criminal cases, depending on the details of the case. But also, a prosecutor might maneuver to bring either a civil or criminal case as he chooses, by choosing which aspects of a crime he chooses to chase after.
Bringing cases as civil rather than criminal has some kinds of advantages. The burden of proof is easier: Only a preponderance of evidence rather than guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And on top of that, civil cases require only a portion of the jury (50%+1?) to convict, rather than unanimous. That could make it easier to get a jury that will convict, given how many potential Trump-heads there are around who could get on a jury. Civil cases cannot be pardoned.
And best of all, civil cases have no protection against double jeopardy. Trump could be investigated ad infinitum if a prosecutor had a mind to, and could be tried over and over if new evidence is uncovered.
I suspect that the number of crimes is rich enough to do both. But expecting Trump to pay any kind of civil penalty without years of appeals is foolish, and it would hardly teach a lesson. Remember, the Trump Foundation got broken up and the Trumpists didn’t give a crap. Putting him behind bars would seem to be the priority, and then sue the Trump Corporation and the kids as needed.
But he’s going to be in serious financial trouble even without government action, though him being in jail would make it slightly harder for him to roll over his loans.
And of course any financial strain arising from court cases will be piled on by the massive debts imminently due. Trump may be the master of shuffling debt around but his options are likely to become increasingly limited. Nobody (or nobody who isn’t actively criminal) will loan him any more money, because he’s now known to be a very bad business risk.
In most (but not all) U.S. courts civil juries have to be unanimous.
And technically, in a civil case, it’s “find liability” rather than “convict.” Though I admit that is me being a bit pedantic.
Extradition is specified in the constitution:
Article IV Section 2:
A person charged in any State with Treason, Felony, or other Crime, who shall flee from Justice, and be found in another State, shall on Demand of the executive Authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime.
Then there is more refinement from federal law:
18 U.S.C. § 3182 - U.S. Code - Unannotated Title 18. Crimes and Criminal Procedure § 3182. Fugitives from State or Territory to State, District, or Territory
Whenever the executive authority of any State or Territory demands any person as a fugitive from justice, of the executive authority of any State, District, or Territory to which such person has fled, and produces a copy of an indictment found or an affidavit made before a magistrate of any State or Territory, charging the person demanded with having committed treason, felony, or other crime, certified as authentic by the governor or chief magistrate of the State or Territory from whence the person so charged has fled, the executive authority of the State, District, or Territory to which such person has fled shall cause him to be arrested and secured, and notify the executive authority making such demand, or the agent of such authority appointed to receive the fugitive, and shall cause the fugitive to be delivered to such agent when he shall appear. If no such agent appears within thirty days from the time of the arrest, the prisoner may be discharged. SOURCE
The unknown question is what does Trump’s Secret Service detail do when they come to arrest Trump and throw him in jail for extradition?
Volunteer to be deputized so they can carry out the arrest?
They would be informed in advance that people are coming to make an arrest. They would travel with the ex President to make sure there are no unfortunate instances such as the prisoner bumping his head when they put him in the police car, or walking into a door, or falling down stairs, or gets shot trying to escape. Which is a consideration that Trump wouldn’t give to others. But other than that they don’t interfere with justice.
< SNL- Emily Latella >
…Oh, PROSECUTED. Never mind…
< / el >
Whether it’s DOJ or Congressional commission or state AGs, I want to see him in prison, assuming the reporting I’ve read is accurate.
But if any prosecutor slow played charges and just waited for him to pass of natural causes, I could accept that too. He himself needs to be punished but he also needs to be used as an example for future con men.
Most seem to be sick from Covid, so there’s that.
Not quite the rest of his life. He doddered around southern Florida with scrambled brains until he finally croaked. I can see history repeating itself with CFSG.
He should be diagnosed in person. All previous psychiatric opinions were second hand. Then admitted to a secure facility, have no outside contact of any kind to prevent him from buying his way out to keep all of us safe. He’s old and will die soon. He looks awful.
No, only for 11 years, of which he served 7 and a half. He lived another 7 years after that, albeit in very poor physical and mental health.
His biggest risk is a guilty verdict if a case comes out of the criminal probe being led by Manhattan District Attorney Cyrus Vance.
Trump would be the king of the hoosegow with his permanent SS detail.
Now I’m wondering: would assaulting a ex-president be a federal offense?