Should turntables be considered valid Instruments?

(Hint: The answer is yes)

Should the combination of 2 turntables and a mixer (plus records) be considered an instrument? I am biased, admittedly. Some seem to refute the respectability of the turntables. One could put thousands of hours in to becoming an expert at manipulating records in rhythmatic paterns and some shmoe guitar-head says “That aint an instrument.”

I guess this one will come down to the definition of the word instrument. It’s tough around here since dictionary’s are considered suggestive and not definitive. Too bad there’s not an official Straight Dope dictionary.

Well, call me a “schmoe guitar-head” if you will, but I’ll say no, it’s not an instrument. You are not creating original sounds, but merely using others’ sounds to create something possibly new. Are you an artist? I won’t go there, since there are many who feel that pastiche is an art form (including William S. Burroughs). But I’d disagree that you’re a musician or that a turntable is a musical instrument.

Before this gets whisked away to IMHO, let me ask this quick question.

By your definition, dalovindj, would a mixing board be an instrument?

I think it is. When playing any musical instrument you are really just arranging something that many people have already used (notes and rhythms) into a unique pattern. Someone using a turntable is just arranging those patterns into another unique pattern.

Let’s not forget that vast amounts of recording and stage time have been spent either playing or paying homage to music created by other people.

Led Zeppelin I, for example, is comprised almost entirely of songs written by other people. Some of it, like “Dazed and Confused,” is intentionally uncredited because it was lifted from contemporary artists.

So music is not necessarily “creation” as from whole cloth. A lot of it is interpretation.

Look at it another way. The Roland GR-505 (or whatever it was) was a guitar-synth which used sampled sounds. If a fellow gets up on stage with one of those things and wails away on it, would you dare accuse that person of a) not being an artist, and b) not playing a proper instrument because it’s using sounds which were actually recorded by another, anonymous artist? The difference between a guitar-synth and a turntable setup seems to me to be simply a matter of degree.

I think we would do well to remember Marcel Duchamp and his impact on the art world. Yes, some platter spinners out there are signing their names on toilets and calling it their own, but others are creating wonderful, unique music with this setup. We would be wise to kick back and enjoy it, in my humble opinion.

Absolutely.

I cannot agree with any definition of “musician” that will include Britney Spears and Shania Twain but exclude DJ Logic or Terminator X.

Dr. J

Beeblebrox:

I don’t think it should be moved. While I have one opinion, this is definately a great debate. I Dj and run sound for a place that is essentialy a Blues club. This conversation has gone on well into the wee hours of the night.

[quote} By your definition, dalovindj, would a mixing board be an instrument? [/quote]

Well … it would need some sort of inputs first. It is the combination that makes it an instrument. A mixing board makes no sound by itself. Sound is definately a pre-requisite.

stofsky:

I would only say that to a friend in a joking manner. We razz each other and it is meant in good fun. I try not to insult people until I know them really well.

Now you are indeed creating new sounds with the turntables. By moving a tiny part of the record back and forth, and at the same time moving a cross-fader on the mixer back and forth you can achieve many sounds that were not on the original source material. By alternating the speed and location of both these movements the pitch and tone of the sound can be varied greatly. Whole new rhythms can be created that are not on the recrd.

An expert turntablist can play scales and even classical music parts. What does it take to be called a musician?

DaLovin’ Dj

Well said Doctor J. DJ Logic is amazing. I saw him here in New york a few weeks ago and it is mindblowing. He plays with alot of different musicians and is a perfect example of how creative you can be with this gear.

DaLovin’Dj

I don’t have much experience in this field but I do remember a TV programme recently (on Channel 4 in the UK) called ‘faking it’ where a Celloist (sp) had a set period of time (A month IIRC) to practice becomeing a top mixing DJ.

At her debut nobody could tell the difference . . .
Could a DJ learn to play the Cello in this time to a similr standard?

I’ll admit I didn’t see the programme so can’t say how good she was, but the review said she had fooled everybody.

**
On second thought, I agree with you.

It can be argued that since the source of the sound from a turn table is from the records themselves, they are no different from the devices in a recording studio. The guitar licks in Jimmy Hendrix’s “Are You Experienced” are actually a recording played backwards. The tape recorder and mixing boards used to produce this new sound are not normally considered instruments, though I do think I would call those who arranged it artists.

Is a DJ an artist? yes

Are turn tables instruments? not sure.

Call me a purist.

Cellist.

Perhaps, perhaps not. It certainly depends on the individual. But if not, it would only indicate that the cello is a more difficult instrument to learn. Could Jimi Hendrix become a concert flügelhornist on a month?

Cellist.

Perhaps, perhaps not. It certainly depends on the individual. But if not, it would only indicate that the cello is a more difficult instrument to learn. Could Jimi Hendrix become a concert flügelhornist in a month?

Cellist.

Perhaps, perhaps not. It certainly depends on the individual. But if not, it would only indicate that the cello is a more difficult instrument to learn. Could Jimi Hendrix become a concert flügelhornist on a month?

Electronic keyboards use prerecorded sounds. I would count them as instruments.

I would say it depends on how you’re using it. In most cases I would say it’s an art form, but not a musical instrument. Of course, I also say most rap is not music but instead is vocal dance. I would say that to be making music you need to be in control of and creating melody and rhythm. Harmony/dischord is an additional but not required element. I personally don’t think rhythm without melody is music even if there are tones involved. I would be hard pressed to define melody with scientific precision though.

In most cases people using turntables do not create their own melody. They do frequently create a rhythm. So, I would put them in the same group as drums. Also, just because it is possible to use an instrument to create music, that doesn’t mean you are actually using it in that way. I could use a guitar to create rhythm, or melody, or both. It’s only music if I have both. (I’m not sure if it’s possible to have melody with no rhythm at all. I’ll have to think about that.)

Note that one person could be creating melody and another could be creating rhythm. If they are cooperating, they might together be making music. That would make their tools musical instruments. Thus drums can be musical instruments.

Blending other people’s music together in an especially moving sequence, is something else altogether. You are creating a kind of uber-rhthym perhaps. And even a kind of uber-melody when it’s done best. It’s like creating a collage of other works. You can just put a bunch of pieces of wonderful art together in a generally esthetic way and depend upon the works themselves to make it meaningful. You can also take pieces of art, and it is almost irrelevant whether they are good or not, and group them together to create an independantly wonderful work of art. So, you could feasably be making music with turntables, I just haven’t ever heard it done. I think you’d need lots of turntables and very fast hands unless you were creating very slow music.

Let me reiterate that I think that rap, dance, etc. are legitimate and enjoyable art forms, I just don’t think they are music in most cases.

I don’t know how many people would agree with my definition of music here. It’s a useful distinction for me. Unfortunately, the word music has a lot of very positive connotations and people who create wonderful art are insulted when I tell them it’s not music. It doesn’t have to be music to be wonderful.

Websters says that music is merely a pleasant grouping of sounds. That could be the sound of the crowds cheering when the Ravens defense scores another touchdown. I don’t describe that as music except in a metaphorical sense.

#%^##@^#@@:"^#@

Drums are, with out a doubt, musical instruments!!! I am not sure what a good definition of melody would be, but I do think that the drums can be played melodically, and musically. Do you think a drum solo is not music?
Drums can be played nonmelodically and non musically, but so can any other instrument.
Just playing a record on a turntable is not using the turntable as a musical instrument, but when you take what is on the record and make something new out of it I believe you are creating music and hence using a musical instrument.
Music evolves just like everything else. At its most basic form you could say that nothing is a musical instrument because you are just taking tones that already exist and arranging them to make something new.

The Cellist could learn to play one of those elementary school zithers with the chords printed on them in fifteen seconds. Does that mean it is not an instrument?

Definitely an instrument. Of course, now the percussionist in the back with the cannon is saying that He plays an instrument, too.

Sigh.

Let’s make sure we’re all on the same pager here, shall we?

Can we all agree on that definition?

If not, please provide an alternative.

If so, we’ll move on to a definition of “instrument” from the same source:

Again, if that makes anyone unhappy, please offer another definition. I don’t have an OED subscription.
On the basis of the above definitions, anything that is used to make a “continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre” is a musical instrument.

Guitars and pianos and drums are clearly intended to be instruments of music. Other things that are not solely designed to make music can nevertheless be used as musical instruments. Car horns, saw blades, Yoko Ono’s voice . . . well, maybe not that last. But anything that is making music is a musical instrument. Period.

What is a guitar, but a thing that makes a bunch of different sounds? When you choose to play a guitar, you are selecting a set of sounds–that is, the sounds that can be made with that particular guitar and rig–and you are combining those sounds into new compositions. That’s music.

Similarly, when you put a record on a turntable, you are selecting a set of sounds, and you are going to combine those sounds to create something new. I don’t really see the difference.

Dr. J

I have seen a street performer get amazing sounds out of an overturned five gallon bucket. That bucket “became” a musical instrument", but is my CD player a musical instrument? It makes a bunch of different sounds. Is my radio an instrument? How about an old eight track player?

I think the question is really “Are DJ’s able to use their turntables to produce sounds that are wholly different from the source material on the vinyl?”

To steal a line from IBBen in another thread: I’m sitting on the fence, push me off.