Should turntables be considered valid Instruments?

Great Debates
41

Again, I agree that many kinds of drums CAN be used to play melody.

The music notation used for your standard rock and roll kit explicitly defines lines on the staff as specific drums, it does NOT define specific notes. It cannot be meaningfully transcribed to a normal tonal staff. I have seen such a notation get expanded into a tonal notation for use with a drumset that included a xylaphone.

Frequently, a drummer in the midst of a long solo will choose to use rototoms, or whichever tonal intruments the drummer has included in the drum set, to play a brief melody. This is a brief interlude and stands out as very different from the rest of the solo. OK fine, drums have tonal components and are used that way here and there. The fact that the brief melodic interlude stands out as such shows that the rest is non-melodic.

Why is this so heavily argued against? Drummers are talented people who are very important to Rock, Blues, and many other forms of music. I just don’t think that rhythm without melody is music. Also, I don’t think that a standard rock drumkit is designed to produce melody. The tonal pieces of a kit are meant for special effects most of the time.

Let me reiterate that I haven’t completely defined melody yet. I haven’t thought of a good way to define it. I know that tones are involved. I don’t think that EVERY series of tones counts as melody. I have heard music where a chord progression gives a vocalist a background, I don’t think that the chord progression itself is always a melody. And sometimes the vocalist chooses to mess around with arpeggiation and such but no discernable melody emerges from all the embellishments. When a vocalist sings the national anthem (USA) these days they frequently add a LOT of embellishment, but you can usually still pick out the melody. Think about whether that last sentence made sense to you. If it did, then you know that the melody is different from rhythm, and also more than just any series of tones. Some of the tones you hear can be a part of embellishments on the melody, or just background harmonics. This all goes toward saying that you can have background harmonics, and arpeggiation, and rhythm, and still NOT have melody (and by my definition, no music). You get this with bad new age ambiant stuff sometimes.

42

VileOrb, “I just don’t think that rhythm without melody is music.” with a similar sentiment reflected by MGibson.

Hmmm, try listening to “Living Room Music” by John Cage. This is an all unpitched percussion piece and quite brilliant. It focuses mostly on rhythm. There is an opposite end of the spectrum “A” by Elliot Carter which is a wind piece for clarinet I believe that is simply playing the A note on the clarinet in different registers for as long as the performer can hold the note. This piece, similar to Ravel’s Bolero maintains its interest by the changing tambour and other effects (crescendos, decrescendos, etc). There was a serial music movement going during the first half of the twentieth century that had many similar styles by following musical maps with similar instructions on performance. These are most definately music though not static music as appears on CD’s or traditional written music.

Just because there is not a traditional note variation in a song does not mean that it is not a melody. A drum melody even with non-definate pitched drums is most certainly a melody. To make a better point, the temple blocks are an unpitched musical instrument. They typically come in groups of five and have an indeterminate pitch with differing brightness of tones. You can play melodies on them and have them be recognizable though you can’t pick out any given tone on the individual block. Simply put, the temple blocks can match pretty much any tone in the spectrum. Drumkits with their indefinate pitch can match that but they typically don’t because drumming along that vein is typically very boring. Other instruments rely on changing notes and less complicated rhythms to make them interesting. Drums really rely more on a complicated structure of rhythms for musical interest. If judging drums solely on rock music’s disinterest in interesting musical drumming, you do the whole percussion world a disservice.

A melody in its simplest form is like a motif. It is the part of the music that you will hum afterwards. The opening of Beethoveen’s Fifth (the “BUM BUM BUM bum” one) is only two notes long. This can be imitated even on the drums. Other things have short recognizable melodies (our favourite childhood taunt"nanny nanny boo boo" = 3 notes) and are still musical though the previous example is pitched. Another example is the horse hoof beats that you typically hear in some old westerns and cartoons. I am sure you can hum those around. It is a definate piece of music that you can pick out. On an even farther note, “America” by Gershwin from West Side Story (I hope I got that reference right), most people hum the rhythm which is what the melody rightly becomes. 123, 123 ,12, 12, 12. 123 123 12 12 12.

With all that said, the turntable is an instrument. It may not be an instrument that is particularly aesthetically pleasing (I have heard many known melodies produced from a turntable played by a DJ out of records that weren’t the given song, America the Beautiful of note). And the style of the music may not necessarily be choice (Rap for instance. It is music, the singing is rhythmical chanting typically, and the background music is usually some simple repeated melody with a possibility of harmony.) but even if I don’t like it doesn’t mean it can’t be music.

HUGS!
Sqrl

43

From the OP:

Of course turntables and a mixer is an instrument. Two rocks clapped together can make music. Many percussion instruments are simple shakers. A folded blade of grass can provide a musical note.

Robert Johnson’s tapped foot provided a simple but powerful rhythmic addition to his music.

The human body itself can be played as an instrument (and be accepted as such on popular music charts - “Don’t Worry, Be Happy”)

Jackyl has a chainsaw solo.

So, it is difficult to argue that turntables are not an instrument.

Later on in the thread:

I produce similar effects with my asscheeks while flatulating. Although the French once considered this artistic, I do not.

Turntables are on the same level as rocks or blades of grass or small hand percussion instruments–toys, capable of producing music, but toys nonetheless.

44

SqrlCub: FTR, a tambour is a type of drum; a timbre (same pronunciation, BTW) is the combination of qualities of a sound that distinguishes it from other sounds of similar pitch and volume. Sorry for what appears to be a spelling troll, but the fact that this particular set of homonyms comes up in this particular thread adds some urgency to the need for accurate spelling to facilitate effective communication.

Also, the composer of the music in West Side Story was Leonard Bernstein. They’re going to strip you of your credentials and make you take your Show Tunes correspondence courses again. :wink:

Hugs, if I may be so bold.

45

I’m really confused here. First you say you’ve heard MUSIC where a chord progression gives a vocalist background…, then you say you can have background harmonics, etc. and still not have melody and therefore NO MUSIC?

If a rhythm guitarist, bass player, and drummer aren’t playing music, then what, exactly, are they playing?

46

In my opinion as a musician yes it is an instrument but only in the hands of a musician. Being able to make a few cool transitions between two inputs and such does not a musician make.

beautiful bit by vileorb

If someone is capable of creating a melody they can control then yes this is music. I agree that there are plenty of DJ’s who meet this kind of criteria and I respect the time and effort they have placed into learning their craft.
Blatantly stating that percussion instruments are incapable of playing music strikes me as someone who has a minimal comprehension of music. I as a brass player am not well versed in the specific techniques of percussion but

Wrong

The drums in a drum set are tuned to specific notes. Maybe not the set in someones basement but pros, yes. Drum and bugle corps tune their drum lines to help make them sound better. All sound has a frequency, if all snare drums are producing their distinctive snap all at the same frequency it creates a far cleaner sound.

The difference between something like a marimba and a drum kit is just a matter of the number of notes available kinda like comparing a modern day trumpet to a straight bugle.

47

kaylasdad99, whoops, I knew the timbre one. I was just tired when I wrote it. Also, I wasn’t sure about Gershwin or Bernstein which I said in my little response but personally don’t like musicals very well (listens for the crowds awkward silence at that one). Thanks for the extra input.

Drachillix said, “The drums in a drum set are tuned to specific notes.”

Just a clarification. The “specific notes” which you refer are indefinate pitches in most cases of kit drumming. You can match the timbre (see I got it right this time kaylasdad) but not necessarily a pitch basis. (ie, you can’t tune a snare drum reliably to A440 without changing the essence of the instrument.) With that said, some drums are pitched (steel drums and some log drums for example. Though I would probably put them in a category more akin to xylophones.). (/emotes fends off the punctuation nazis.) :wink:

HUGS!
Sqrl

48

SQRL - As I said, I have a more narrow definition of the word music and apparently the word melody as well, than some of you. And I still think that the definitions or descriptions given here allow for any sound that is pleasing to anyone to be called music. Personally, I think John Cage’s thing is really annoying. I still can’t come up with a succinct definition of melody. Most recorded sounds that I listen to frequently are within my narrow definition of music, but I do have some techno disco stuff that I like that I wouldn’t call music. It’s tonal, you could play the main themes on a violin recognizably, but it’s not melodic. Kraftwerk’s “Techno Pop” for example. Most of Kraftwerk. “Sex Object” is brilliant, but I don’t call it music except in metaphor. As in, “It’s music to my ears.”

What sounds are you saying could NOT be called music? If there are none, and i’ve heard new age ambiance “music” of city noise and traffic jams as well as water falls and roaring fires, if there are none then the word essentially indicates nothing about the sounds described. It probably says something about the speaker. So, if I say I’m going to go listen to music and then I go outside and sit on the porch listening to my chainsaw idle, then you can infer that I have a thing for Japanese poetry. :wink: But unless you knew me well, my statement about music would tell you nothing about what kind of sounds I was going to go listen to.

49

What??!!! I understand you are saying that you personally believe that isn’t music, but it’s simply not true! How could rhythm sans melody equal no music?

So if I’m sitting there strumming chords on my guitar to a song you’d recognize (rhythm playing), that isn’t music? Wow. That’s a narrow definition you have there.

Dalovindj: this is an excellent debate.

I consider a musical instrument to be something which, on its own, sitting there in the corner is capable of producing tones which make up music. It is the medium for the music.
However, what troubles me with turntables is that, on its own, it isn’t as ‘plastic’ as proper instruments. I can’t say, “Play me a b note, and then a c note, dj.” Can’t do it. At least not without fiddlin’ with this or that first. It’s not ‘plastic’ enough.

I like it, I appreciate it… but it’s not a musical instrument.

50

Acco40:

Indeed it is. I have had it many times with many people, but I must say the folks here make the points more precisely and eloquently (on both sides) than any conversation I have had thus far on the subject. I believe I will print out this thread and carry it with me as a reference!

This is untrue. A b note could be played, and then a c note. You just need the proper records. Without fiddlin? To pick the record you use and adjust the pitch and crossfader to make specific notes can be compared to applying pressure to strings on the neck of a guitar. It is the “fiddlin” that is the playing of the instrument.

Gotta disagree. Glad you like it though. This reminds me of a book I read called “The end of Acting”. In it the author discusses the question is acting an art? You must first define art. This becomes difficult. Michelangelo’s David is art to most, but to a pigeon it is just a place to shit. He comes to the conclusion (which I agree with) that art is in the emotions it inspires in people. It’s a different point than what this thread is about, but I guess it’s safe to say you would call Turntablism an art?

DaLovin’ Dj

51

Yeah. I see what you mean now. Maybe it’s just not the functionality of the turntable in question, but the practicality of using it to make certain types of music which is problematic (for me) in defining it as a musical instrument.

Is it a “one trick horse”, in that it serves a specific purpose in a specific genre of music? Or can it be applied to other types of music as a full-blown, music-producing instrument?

52

Is the didgeridoo an instrument?

53

Definately not a one trick horse. You are only limited by the sounds on records you can find. A master turntablist (which I am not yet) can play any song, melody, or beat from any song in any genre.

If I need to be able to play the notes C, E, and D then I need a record with those notes on them. Then I can arrange it any way I see fit. That is to say I can use the same notes in a different order than they were on the record. I can accomplish this by cutting the sound off with the cross fader as I move the record back or forward to the location of the next note I want to use. When I get there I release the record and bring the crossfader back so you can hear it. You have to get pretty quick and precise for it to sound right, but it is super cool once done correctly.

DaLovin’ Dj

54

Regarding the OP:

If I was on the fence before, I’ve ‘fallen’ on the side that turntables, etc., are instruments. To me the crucial question was not “can they produce music”, but rather “are they instruments or merely being used as instruments” (as a plastic tub is a container that can be used as an instrument). It is my understanding, however, that DJ turntables are not “off the shelf at the electronics store” record players, but have fairly extensive modifications to allow them to be ‘played’. The converse is to say a guitar is merely a funny-shaped box, or a flute is a really poorly designed straw.

On the subject of Melody/Rhythm/Harmony, etc - Melody, as defined by music theory[sup]1[/sup], is not strictly necessary - the best example off the top of my head is Baroque counterpoint - lots of harmonic “action”, but that action is created by the motion of voices within chords. There is no melody/harmony: it’s just not composed that way. The concept of melody/harmony didn’t acquire focus until the Classic period. Blues, similarly, can have a melody sung OVER it, but the actual motion through the 8 or 12 bars is defined as “rhythm”, not melody.

[sup]1[/sup] [sub]I don’t have my theory books here at work; if this thread stays open long enough, I’ll try and inject some ‘real’ definitions. English Dictionaries are good stopgaps, but they are only general references.[/sub]

55

I just want to reiterate my question for those who are complaining that my definition is too narrow. What sounds are NOT music by your definition?

Someone said that they agreed with my statement that the person making the sounds had to be in control to call that person a musician. But that doesn’t say that the sound isn’t music just becuase the person causing it on didn’t have control (i.e. turn on radio).

So, What ISN’T music?

56

Someone taking a dump :slight_smile:

57

This subject was addressed a month or so ago, and I’m sure someone will come along with the thread title. Damn me for being lazy.

Anyway, there is something out there called “Sound art” which, to the best of my knowledge, is that which doesn’t conform to any existing music theory.

Either way, based on THAT thread, the music which is produced from a turntable is most definately that: music.

I’ll shut up now.

58

Uncontrolled and/or unreproducible noise that no one finds pleasing.

59

Just regarding rhythm, I would say that something is not music if the sounds produced are random. If the sounds form a planned pattern then it is music. For example:
If you’re lying in bed and you hear a kid screaming and then a garbage truck goes by, the two sounds are not music. On the other hand, if the kid and the garbage man get together and make a pattern of sounds then it is music.
I also think you can have music without a pattern but in this case there has to be planned chords, or atleast planned notes that sound good together.
I think for me to call something music it just has to have some amount of planning gone into it. Even the most improvisational avant-garde jazz music has some sort of chords or rhythm in it that has been planned out.
Has anyone ever seen STOMP? For those of you who have not…it is a musical that has no words. The musicians in the show use regular items to make music. They use brooms, buckets, hubcaps, sandpaper, pots and pans, etc., etc. What they play is definitely music. They have it planned out and they have changes and everything. They do this one song where they each have a zippo lighter. They make a song by opening, closing, and lighting their lighters in a special pattern. Each lighter has a different “tone” that I guess is based of the size of the persons hand who is holding, the size of the lighter, the amount of fluid in the lighter, etc. It is really amazing though, and they turn all the lights off too, so you get the visual aspect as well. Its a really cool musical

60

Well, a quick perusal of my books revealed no definitions of melody, so I’ll retract my comment inasmuch as I can’t support it given the criteria of this forum.

When you hit ‘play’, you are reproducing the music that someone else produced at another point in time.

A crucial element of music is that it is ‘art of the moment’. The performance of a piece of music, whether it is recorded or live, occurs only in that instant that the sound is produced. As opposed to a statue, which exists, unchanging (relatively speaking) over time. Every time you pop in an Aerosmith CD, Aerosmith isn’t performing those tunes again just for you (unless you live in Bedrock with Fred and Wilma).

Furthermore, the only aspects of ‘control’ you have over the music on the radio is it’s volume, and /when/ it’s replayed. (ok, and given your rig you can control EQ, and overlay effects, etc). But music is more than volume (for the time being I’ll ignore the ‘Sound Art’ argument - but I will address it in a minute). Music has components of tonal, texture, rhythm, timbre, density, meter, etc., at multiple levels within the music. from African Drumming to Japanese Koto, to Jazz, Rock, etc… Even, I’m afraid to say, Nsync and Ms. Spears have these components in their music.

Crap - Anything that doesn’t fulfill the definition of music. Anything that’s not a duck is not a duck. I’m not trying to make light of the question, but if the definition of music is so broad that you’re looking for exceptions, then find a new definition!

As for Sound Art - since Acco40 was lazy :stuck_out_tongue: about presenting a link, I’ll just mention the following: If Sound Art "doesn’t conform to any existing music theory. ", it sounds like a standard deconstructionist argument - “the absence of paint is as important as the presence of paint on a canvas, therefore a blank canvas is art” (yawn). Sure, I suppose - but it’s worth in the grand scheme is as an intellectual curiosity.

Back to the OP - if you adopt a definition of music so broad that virtually any sound is music, then sure, turntables are instruments too. Powerful statement, that :rolleyes:. But I think that turntables can be considered instruments even using a narrower definition - Does the person playing the turntable control Tone/texture/rhythm/timbre yaddah yaddah in time? sure - the fact that the “strings” of their “violin” happen to be records of other music is immaterial as their technique is not ‘hitting play’ and then walking off.

N.B. coming down on the side that ‘turntables are instruments’ in no way means I approve of ‘sampling’ - if you’re such a musician, write your own god(&* loops!*