hope i am doing this right…with regard to this post. iwas in the post office the other day. of course we know that the postal service is far above the laws that ordinary citizens have to follow…ask anyone whose dog barks behind the iron security door…the sign at the counter said that they would NOT accept unsigned cards…reffering that they had some right under some law…sure enough, my "see picture ID was not good enough for them…how can this happen…oh silly me…is there really soem law that enables them to do this?
Welcome to the Straight Dope message board, Whimsy. The only thing you forgot was a link to the SD Staff Report you’re discussing: http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcredit.html
And the post offices in New Mexico have these signs, too.
We tend to forget such things in our life, but no one HAS to accept a credit card, or a check, in payment of goods or services. There is even some doubt about the ability to force a merchant to accept cash as payment for anything (run the search engine for both message board threads and Cecil columns regarding “legal tender”).
Assuming that a merchant is willing to accept your credit card as a form of payment, the terms on which they so do are set only by two things: the contract of sale between you and the merchant, and the contract the merchant has with the credit card company that allows him to reclaim the money your card pledges. As regards the contract with you, the merchant is able to specify any terms he/she likes; it then is up to you to accept those terms, or negotiate different terms. No agreement? No Sale.
But you the card holder DO have some help. The credit card companies want to ensure that your card is taken when offered (else why would you have one?). So they have all sorts of contractural rules with the merchant as to what the merchant must accept, the rules the merchant must follow, etc. One of those rules is that the merchant has to ensure that the card user is the card owner, otherwise the charge is not reimbursable to the merchant. If the merchant chooses as a result to insist on a signature instead of photographic identification, that is up to the merchant. Of course, it is a stupid requirement, since the photographic ID is harder to fake than the signature, but hey, who said the Post Office’s rules ever made any sense? 
you are so right about the post office! i have never met a bigger bunch of trained idiots! and don’t expect to be treated with any respect if you are disabled!..so…since the card companies want their cards to be used…would they take issue with these signs?..should i report this to them…is there no law that allows you to protect your signature against theft?..if a business accepts cards, it would seem reasonable that they cannot single out certain people to deny unless they violate a rule required by the card company…(oh, my mistake! “reasonable” and “post office” just don’t mix do they?) lol…why is there not some regulation for this?..by the way…thank you so much for taking the time to answer! we are so surrounded by laws…most of them are impossilbe for the average person to understand…legal assistance is a nightmare to access…and most of us, especially those who are disabled, cannot afford to hire one in order to know what our rights are!..
Welcome to the Straigh Dope, whimsy, but may I suggest that you calm down a bit? Asking why the Post Office doesn’t accept unsigned cards is a perfectly reasonable question for this forum, but all of the ranting about post office stupidity belongs elsewhere, such as our BBQ Pit forum on this site.
Also, might I recommend that you try to work on your capitalization and grammar? There’s no rule about it, but people will tend to take you much more seriously if you use the language properly.
well gee thanks…i am a victim of thalidimide…i only have two fingers on one hand and none on the other…you sure are a nice person…i guess you have never had the opportunity to be seen as a freak everywhere you go…great criticism
sorry iam not as lucky as you…i don’t have the luxury of typing fast…it is a very difficult proccess for me…too bad youare so perfect that everyone else must liveup to your standards…oh and btw…thanks for making me feel welcome…i guess even on the internet i have to endure mena peopel like you…if it is any consolation…yes …you made me cry…i hope you are happy
the more i sit and think about this the more steamed i get…i hold a masters degree in psychology and am working on my doctorate…i have been published and won many awards for my writing…it is a very difficult proccess for me…i choose to write less formally when participating in internet discussions…as most people do…just see how fast you can capitalize with a first and second digit only…and they are not fully developed…had i known iwas submitting a paper to the dissertation committee i would have considered the value of taking the time to make my note perfect…i had no idea that your standards were so high…i seem to recall that when i read the “rules” that the only one was “don’t be a jerk”…i must have missed the one othat covered the proper style for submitting a post to such a prestigious literary publication…and i must have missed the IQ and educational requirements…are all of you member subjected to your elit filtering system? …actually after i read some of the incredibly juvenile past submissions i must not be the first one to have my post red-pencilled…am i amd and sarcastic…yes!!!..and i have a right to be
I work for a company which processes ATM/Debit cards - we have in management some executives formerly in the credit card issuing industry.
I’ve learned that “SEE PHOTO ID” is not what Visa and Mastercard want done with their signature panels - the underlying philosophy (laid down in the 50’s and still true today) is that your signature is all the identification you need; if all you have in your pocket is your (brandname) credit card, merchants have already agreed to take it solely on the strength of your signature match. An excerpt from an actual merchant agreement:
Before accepting any Card, Merchant shall … examine the signature on each Cardholder’s Card. Merchant shall not honor any Card where the signature on the sales draft does not correspond to the signature on the Card
Not intending to hijack, but these conversations arose because of the (IMO despicable) practice of some stores where I live (large retail type) to require a photo id for all credit card transactions. This is against the Visa/MC rules (usually unless the card is unsigned, then they are asked for as the card is signed in the presence of the cashier). From the same agreement:
Merchant shall … not request or record such personal Cardholder information, such as home or business telephone number, a home or business address, driver’s license, or other such identification onto the sales draft as a condition of the sale unless such information is required under specific circumstances cited in MasterCard or VISA rules and regulations.
I think that this stance requiring these signatures, is supported by the fact that forging your signature is already a felony.
One thing I hate about merchants requesting your photo id is that an unscrupulous cashier can memorize your address off it, allowing them to later order things online and enter enough of it into the “billing address” to fool that particular security scheme. So “SEE PHOTO ID” in your signature panel can expose you to more fraud than just signing the card.
AmbushBug
so in other words…the official position of the straightdope staff…was…INCORRECT??? gee isn’t bad advice worse than bad typing?..thanks…it is nice to hear from someone without a stick up their…well you get the picture…thank you for offering INFORMATION instead of criticisms about my typing ability
While it is true that the credit card companies ask the merchant to accept signature and not require photo ID, one can always ASK to have the merchant verify by photo ID (I, for one, am one who does that, because signatures are very difficult to compare and unravelling credit card misuse can be a real pain).
In reviewing the staff report referenced, you will note that the staff did NOT say that your signature wasn’t ‘required’; what they said was that major merchants advise against signing the card because it causes potential difficulty for you. This is a basic warning that trying to avoid fraud by comparing signatures is damn near useless. What the staff report did not address was whether or not the signature could be required by the merchant, or whether such practice (asking for Photo ID) violated the agreement with the credit card company.
You might try running a search on the message board; I recall a thread on this shortly after the report from the staff issued.
SD recommentded that the best proceedure to follow was to write “see ID” in order to prevent fraud. however to advise such a thing when you have no protection from the card company to support the method does not solve the problem. it puts you at risk of not being able to use your card, or ending up having to sign it anyway. additionally, although signature fraud is illegal, it still puts the consumer at risk and unless the perpetrator is caught and the case is proven, the consumer is still responsible for the documents signed…it happened to me…they could not find who did it and i got stuck with over $23000 worth of debt. easy to forge a signature made with two fingers it seems. also, to insist that merchants see your id also does not really help anyone but the honest people. no criminal is going to ask it. great i can insure that the clerks know it isme when I use the card. but if someone steals it or my signature it does not help at all. anyway all i wanted to know was what laws could protect me. i guess there are none. however i have endured some ugly and UNWARRENTED predjudice here. ihave asked to be romoved from the member list. if the moderators don’t think my typing abilities are up to snuff, ihave more important things to do. i do however thank you again for your kind information
http://www.mastercard.com/consumer/cust_serv.html
Master card’s contract with merchants specifies that you do not need to present an additional ID.
This practice of yours does nothing to protect you, as someone who stole your credit card will not also steal this habit of yours. You are protected by the chargeback policies of the credit card company - if your card is lost or stolen, or if someone scams on your number then a properly filed dispute will fix you up. And if I’m in line after you, and the clerk thinks to ask me for my ID because you had yours asked for, too bad for them 
I think merchants, after finding bad signatures on charged-back slips, foist on their clerks a policy of asking for ID, rather than holding the clerks accountable for failing to check the signature panels…
Ah, yes. I found this thread, this thread, and this thread on the subject. Thanks for the idea, I’m kinda new to this too
Nobody seems to have pointed out that at one time (I think they still do) if you requested it Citibank would issue credit cards (Visa and/or MC) with photo and signature printed integrally. I’m not unfond of this idea, but it didn’t help the guy in this thread.
AmbushBug
thanks for the info…hmmmmm…pardon my poor typing abilities here…it also seems, according to the web site…THAT MASTERCARD SAYS THAT ANY VENDOR DISPLAYING ACCEPTANCE OF THEIR CARD…CANNNOT…DISCRIMINATE…CANNOT REFUSE TO ACCEPT IT…so i have emailed them and asked if putting "see id’ is an acceptable method…thaks for the sight…so this is not completely correct either?..
"We tend to forget such things in our life, but no one HAS to accept a credit card, or a check, in payment of goods or services. There is even some doubt about the ability to force a merchant to accept cash as payment for anything (run the search engine for both message board threads and Cecil columns regarding “legal tender”). "…
interesting…thank you for the info…and thank you for helping to restore some of my faith in people…thank you for sticking to the issue and not attacking me for my typing skills
to ambush bug…the practice was not my idea…it was the position taken by SD…it was THEIR advice…i merely questioned it since THEIR ADVICE seemed to have some grave problems…and being my first time to this…i had not figured out how to track things here…"thread’ took a bit to figure out…i guess that will raise questions as to my intelligence!..pardon the sarcasm…but gee, i wanted help with knowing my rights because i have been treated badly…now it seems my character has come under attack…from people who neither know me or experienced what i have…thanks
I just got my card yesterday.
The paperwork from the bank says “Sign your card right away.”
On the back of the card it says “Valid only when signed.”
No weasle words. Just do it.
What you seem to have overlooked on that site, whimsy, is the the use of the word ‘valid’ in the paragraph to which you are referring…
If the back of your card reads “Not valid unless signed,” then merchants can refuse to accept it because without your signature it isn’t valid.
However, that doesn’t mean that I disagree with your stance that merchants should be willing to accept a credit card along with a signed driver’s license if the customer is willing to provide the additional ID. The way I see it is, if the purpose of having the signature on the card is to compare it to the one you’re going to put on the sales slip, they can just as easily do that by comparing your signature to the one on your driver’s license. Not to mention that the photo further assures them that the card is less likely to have been stolen.
I also do not ever sign the back of any of my cards for just this very reason. And I don’t buy the argument that cashiers can memorize your address so this makes that method somehow more “dangerous.” I haven’t signed the back of a credit card in years and I have never once had any of my cards refused anywhere I’ve attempted to use them, nor have I had anyone use my address to buy things online after I showed them my photo ID.
I would suggest that if you are more comfortable doing it this way, that you continue to do so, but remember what merchants won’t accept this method and either don’t do business with them anymore or bring along another form of payment when you visit their store.
[An aside]Welcome to The Straight Dope. I certainly hope you won’t take one admonition as representative of how everyone here treats new members. I hope you’ll stick around and contribute to more discussions.[/aside]
please re-read what i was referring to…
"We tend to forget such things in our life, but no one HAS to accept a credit card, or a check, in payment of goods or services. There is even some doubt about the ability to force a merchant to accept cash as payment for anything (run the search engine for both message board threads and Cecil columns regarding “legal tender”). "…
this was a statement by another member…the reply…and i did not overlook “valid”…was in response to the above mention that “no one HAS to accept a credit card”…Mc says this is not true…if the merchant has an agreement with them…they DO have to accept it…the question of validity is still awaiting an answer from MC
In all the years I’ve been using credit cards, I can remember maybe two times when the cashier held onto it and then compared my signature with what was on the card. Still, I go ahead and sign them, because it does say, “Valid only when signed”, and if I didn’t sign it, wouldn’t you know, that would be the one time I’d get some particularly fanatical new checker, who would stand there and hold onto my card to compare, and would see that it wasn’t signed, and would go ballistic, “Oh My God! Stolen VISA! Stolen VISA! Call 911! Call 911!” and I’d probably have an extremely uncomfortable 30 minutes or so, right there.
So I sign them. Life’s too short, you know?
And I’ve never, ever had somebody ask me for a photo ID to go along with my credit card. With a check, yes, but not plastic. Why should Wal-Mart care if you’re using a stolen VISA card? They still get paid.