It’s a lot harder to ‘hide’ being transgender than it is to ‘hide’ being gay (and people shouldn’t have to do either). And coming out as gay doesn’t change fundamental stuff about how people nteract with you.
“Hi, I’m Larry and I’m gay, but I’m still a man and I still like cycling, fishing and yoghurt, and I’ll still be bringing the doughnuts for the Friday meeting” is one thing. “Hi, I was Larry and now I’m Laura so I’ll be dressing like a woman and you have to call me “she” and think of me as a woman despite the fact I still look like somewhat like a man and you’ve known me for years as a man and this is literally the first most of you have heard about me having ever had doubts about my gender” is another.
I’m perfectly comfortable with my gender, but, like you, I have no desire nor do I see any purpose to display my preferred pronouns. For me, having to display my preferred pronouns seems like an announcement that I’m somehow insecure about my gender. It’s fairly obvious I’m a man and being misgendered just isn’t a regularly encountered problem I’ve had. But if other people feel better about publishing their pronouns that’s fine with me.
For me personally, of the three, only announcing my gender would single me out as a minority in my industry. But it appears I’m supposed to see this as a non-issue even while people obviously think sharing other, similar aspects of ones identity is likely to increase discrimination. It seems like a double standard. The fact you want to know the scenario before answering… I guess that shows that sharing such personal information is a big deal in general, and not a minor unimportant thing to ask of people. You just believe that in this case the benefit to one group outweighs the costs to another.
what do you mean by this? I don’t understand. Whether they are considered to “pass” as their preferred gender is unconnected to the number of people who declare pronouns.
A corporation is free to make whatever choices it likes for itself. Putting pressure on individuals to do likewise and by doing so inviting conclusions to be drawn about moral, ethical and political views seems to be an unambiguously bad course of action.
There are myriad reasons why someone might be uncomfortable with sharing such information. Some benign, some less so. Some that are incomprehensible to you and I but deeply felt nonetheless. Giving the option to all is a good thing, forcing people to do so is not.
I never felt uncomfortable with my gender, but I have many interests more common in men, and I certainly have felt uncomfortable being in a minority and being treated differently because of it. When I became a teenager I found I didn’t really fit it with or identify with the common gender stereotypes, and I really wished and tried to be normal, but as I grew up I accepted that I wasn’t, and did my best to find friends who would accept me as I am. I think the fact that I’m judged more harshly for doing (or not doing) things that are considered more acceptable in men is unfair, but I can’t do much about it. (And I wouldn’t conform any better to the common male stereotypes.)
However, I do feel uncomfortable with the idea that using certain pronouns, or calling myself a woman, is assumed to be some kind of endorsement of those stereotypes, or a declaration that I want to be treated a certain way, and be subject to those judgements. Yet that seems to be the inevitable implication of people declaring themselves non-binary in order to escape those stereotypes and those judgements. If the more non-conforming members of each sex declare that they are not men or women, that narrows everyone’s idea of what men and women can be like.
This is kind of me too - except that I wouldn’t exactly say I “don’t feel comfortable with” my gender, it’s more that I don’t really believe in having a personal gender at all. I have a body. It’s female. I don’t have feelings about that particularly, I don’t think it needs to have any impact on what I do or what I like, and so I don’t have any sense that ‘she’ is “my” pronoun - it’s just a word that people use, it doesn’t mean anything about my personality.
I also think it would actually be much easier for people who don’t easily conform to gender stereotypes if we just didn’t police gender stereotypes - it seems like putting gender front and center so much just makes it harder for people to do what they happen to like that fits their personality
Sounds like you work in a terrible place. It’s like something out of some right-wing strawman of a workplace, something that the Dilbert guy might make up. Why do you stay there?
This thread, of course, is not about that. It’s about whether one should do it of one feels comfortable with their some set of gender pronouns. It’s not about people putting their pronouns when they are uncomfortable doing so, and not about companies putting pressure on employees to do so.
Because it pays the bills and having previously been made redundant not all that long ago due to industry downturn and having to change industries entirely in the interest of keeping said bills paid and being able to buy groceries etc, I’m stuck there until something better comes up. Which could be a while off, given the pandemic situation here and the Government’s utter shitshow of a response to it.
Female. It’s not generally a man’s name in Australia.
I would urge you to consider publishing your pronouns if that’s done in places you frequent. If someone addressed you as “ma’am” over the phone, would you correct them? Would you be annoyed to get an email addressed to Ms Odesio? Then consider publishing your pronouns. It’s not an announcement of gender insecurity. And if people like you post your pronouns, it looks less like an announcement of insecurity to other people like you when someone who does get accidentally misgendered does it. You are actively helping that person look more normal and more secure.
Yes. I’ve had this discussion with a friend who sometimes identifies as a woman and sometimes as non-binary. I’m pretty sure that if i were 20, i would identify as non-binary. But i grew up with the “gender doesn’t matter” phase of feminism. Her response was that that theory failed, and they are trying something new.
Interestingly, her partner is a guy who kind of came out as trans, but after a lot of therapy identifies as a non-gender-conforming man. He has kept his male-typical name and decided to continue using male pronouns. But he dresses and grooms as a woman, and hangs out with the girls at the sort of event where genders split. He uses the men’s room when forced to use a gendered gang bathroom. But he’s often freaked out men who think he’s in the wrong place. (“Ma’am, i don’t think you belong here”, “I’m sorry, but I’m afraid there isn’t really a place where i do belong” is a typical interaction.)
He has been much happier, in fact, much less suicidal, since publicly embracing his femininity. He was shocked and relieved that his friends all supported him when he did this. But it’s really really hard for a man to do that.
He embraces publishing your preferred pronouns, and feels supported by those cis people who do so.
I think it’s fine and even supportive to list pronouns in one’s official bio or email sig. I haven’t done it, but I think the only reason is that it never occurred to me and I’ve never seen any of my coworkers do it, and I’d feel strange (and, truthfully, a little fearful) about being the first one, especially in an office full of older conservatives. That’s probably not a particularly good reason, but I’d feel a lot more comfortable doing it if I saw others in my office do it, or if the powers that be suggested or encouraged it.
Posting to thank you for your continued input into this thread. Not only do you interact with many more transgender and nonbinary people than most people, you also brought your own perspective of not being comfortable with pronouns. So, thanks!
Firstly, I said “generally”, because obviously there’s likely to be a couple about (there are 24 million people here, after all) and secondly, in the more than two decades I’ve been living here (most of which has been spent working in public-facing roles), I haven’t met any male Staceys. Plenty of male Kims and Robins, though.
I don’t think you get to dictate what the thread covers.
Some companies do apply pressure in various ways and some people are uncomfortable with feeling pressured to do so. That is a reasonable discussion to have. Indeed the OP states they can’t think of a downside so it makes sense to discuss potential downsides yes?
