What’s fucked up, and has been for years, is the fact that weak parents are brow beaten by their bratty spoiled kids into buying overpriced high dollar shoes, because Jr. whines “Mommeee, I have to have the hundred dollar sneakers” because “insert sports figure here” says so, or I will thwow a tantwum.
By golly, back in the day, we got Keds, and wore em with pride, cuz that’s all we got. Uphill through the snow both ways to skool and all that, and we liked it!
Oh yeah, I’m sure that’s it. “Urban.” And of course no NHL players come from urban areas.
Are you joking?
In any event, show me the evidence that young NBA stars are any more screwed upo than young NFL, NHL or baseball stars. Evidence, please, not just vague comments and euphemisms about “urban” kids.
Maybe in Canada. But down here a hockey player will be lucky to get a deal endorsing a local tire store, or maybe a septic sucking service. But shoes or clothes…no way.
Otherwise, I’ve got to go with HSHP here. Your point sounds awfully racist-tinged to me.
ESPN, quoting Forbes: “Forbes” magazine estimated that between 1990 and 1998 Gretzky earned $93.8 million from hockey and endorsements for companies like McDonald’s, the Hudson’s Bay Co., Hallmark Cards and Coca-Cola.
So, over a nine year period, most of which included Gretzky, the most famous hockey player in the world and a national icon, being in Los Angeles: Average salary, including endorsements- about 10 million per year.
Who’s the second-most-popular guy in hockey- ever? Mario Lemieux? His total earnings for his entire career are only five million more than Artest’s six year contract.
Who’s the most popular guy in hockey RIGHT NOW? Sid the Kid? Hell, Sergei Fedorov is one of the greatest to play the game and all he’s known for outside of hockey is dating Anna Kournikova.
Let’s face facts: Basketball is more popular than hockey. There’s more money to be made in basketball than there is to be made in hockey. In fact, I would go so far as to say that there is more money to be made on the fringes of basketball than there is to be made in the entirety of hockey.
I’m sorry, I thought I was being clear, but perhaps not. So let me be absolutely unambiguous: It’s racism. NBA prospects are being subjected to cmore criticism because they’re mostly black.
Honestly, folks, go back and read what you’ve written: it sums up with “Well, hockey isn’t as popular.”
Honestly, there’s no dumber argument in the world. Hockey players are millionaires. Distinguishing between a guy who makes $1.4 million and a guy who makes $5.2 million and saying that a 19-year-old can “Handle” being a $1.4 million player, but can’t “handle” being a $5.2 million player, is the height of insanity. Nobody in the world who can’t handle $5.2 million can handle $1.4 million. The difference in utility between $1.4 million and $5.2 million is less, in any practical sense, than the difference between $1.4 million and an ordinary working wage. I can’t believe grown adults are seriously arguing “well, you can’t trust 18-year-olds with five million dollars, but a million, hey, no problem!”
And if you really do believe something that dumb, explain to me why nobody is calling for Major League Baseball to raise its draft age, or prohibiting the signing of teenagers from Latin America? (Latin American players are not subject to the draft.) MLB first round picks get multimillion dollar signing bonuses all the time and they make far, far more than hockey players.
To suggest that there is some turning point that lies between the average salary of an NHL player and the average salary of an NBA player is fucking stupid. Beyond a million dollars a goddamned year, if someone is irresponsible with fame and fortune, they’re going to be irresponsible with fame and fortune. LeBron James would not be a better man if you “cut” his annual haul to a million and a half.
If you’d like me to trot out examples of young white athletes in the NHL, MLB, NFL or what have you being irresponsible and stupid with their fame and fortune, I’d be happy to do so. Why do they get a pass as a group when Brien Taylor or Josh Hamilton fuck up their lives? Why, because those sports aren’t so connected to black culture, that’s why. The media absolutely does have a general double standard for black athletes, and always have. Black athletes are “athletic,” white ones are “Hard working.” A black athlete who doesn’t get along with his teammates is pilloried for it; white athletes usually get a pass.
LeBron James is a grown man and it’s not up to some bitter sportswriter to decide what he should be doing with his life at the age of 19.
OK, I think maybe I understand what you’re saying, but I still don’t get how it has anything to do with my OP. I’m happy to allow the hijack, since nobody seems to want to take LeBron’s side against Marbury.
Let me see if I understand your points correctly. If I do not, please correct me.
OK, this one is pretty unambiguous. But by what standard are we talking here? My answer to your statement would go something along the following:
More NBA players are involved in more thuggish incidents, as a percentage of players in the league, than NHL players are.
Basketball’s popularity, as well as the nature of the incidents in question, keep the infractions in the news.
The huge amounts of money that float around in basketball, as well as the culture surrounding prospects in basketball hotbeds, lead to a grossly disproportionate number of “hangers-on” and “walkaround guys” and people (be it friends, family, or just shysters looking to make a quick buck) sponging off a basketball player than a hockey player. While any 19-year-old kid is going to have trouble handling money, 200 million, as an economic rule, supports many more leeches than 6 million.
Basketball culture (city culture) fosters more of an environment where such displays of manhood as strip clubs, guns, and conspicuous consumption of clothing, cars, and jewelry than hockey culture (rural culture).
It’s about economics, not about race. Insofar as the two are connected, then race is involved. But the fact of the matter is that, to play hockey, you have to invest money on gear, gear that a kid will outgrow dozens of times in his childhood. To play basketball, you just need one basketball. To play hockey, you need a rink, which is expensive. To play basketball, you need a court, which is not.
I hate to tell you this, but you are assigning positions to me that I do not hold.
I do not think that basketball players are less suited to manage money than hockey players. I’m saying that more money attracts more leeches.
Plenty of people are calling for MLB to raise its draft age, particularly activists from Central American and Caribbean countries who see their youth being perverted in exactly the same way that basketball is doing to inner-city kids. You should look into this- it’s fascinating reading. Why hasn’t it gotten more attention? Popularity, perhaps. Few people want to read about a kid who felt the need to rescue his whole family and then lost his $25,000.00 signing bonus to gangsters.
Nobody’s saying they don’t exist. But I’d love to see your list.
Brien Taylor was a fuckup. There’s no two ways around that. But I wouldn’t even know who Brien Taylor was if I didn’t grow up in the Bronx. I don’t even know who Josh Hamilton is. A quick Googling shows me that he’s a bigger dumbass than Brien Taylor. Big deal.
The reason nobody cares about minor leaguers, promise though they may have, is because a low single-digit percentage of minor leaugers ever even SNIFF the Show. So there’s not much story there. Basketball players, the ones that make the big money, are immediate impact players.
I’m going to go all the way and completely disagree with you here.
The biggest asshole in baseball is Barry Bonds, and he’s black. But right behind him on the asshole spectrum is Jeff Kent, who is white as a freaking ghost. And Kent gets more shit than Bonds because Kent isn’t anywhere near as good as Bonds.
The biggest asshole in hockey is Eric Lindros, and he’s white. In fact, most of the assholes in hockey are white. The only black guy in hockey who could be called an asshole, Donald Brashear, is an enforcer, and so it’s his job to be an asshole, and he does his job efficiently, so I don’t consider him an asshole at all. Marty McSorely was an asshole, in fact, for doing what he did to Brashear. The racial composition of hockey is going to make the majority of the assholes in the sport white.
The biggest asshole in football is Pacman Jones. He’s black. But he’s an asshole. The biggest moron in football is the white Ben Roethisberger, but he got pilloried, and hurt nobody but himself.
The biggest asshole in basketball is Ron Artest. See my hockey points, and reverse the races. RickJay, I’m not sure where to go with my argument. I want to debate you civilly, and I don’t think that you’re being an asshole here by any means. I just think that you and I differ significantly on the cultures of the sports, and I think we ascribe different reasons to it. If I’m missing any of your points, let me know. I’m doing nothing but laundry today, so I have some time to devote to this, if you’re interested.
Is that actually true, or are they just publicized more? Speaking as a guy who’s grown up in Canada, I can tell you hockey prospects certainly do get into their share of, er, unpleasantries. And bear in mind that Canadians are generally less inclined towards crime than Americans.
And tell me; what’s the relative level of “thuggish” behaviour with, say, baseball and football draft picks? I seem to hear about NFL players getting into trouble with the law on a daily basis. But nobody talks about those sports raising their draft ages. Baseball teams can sign 17-year-olds.
Young basketball players who actually rake in such huge sums are few and far in between, though. Very few young basketball players get big endorsement deals a la James, and Lebron James hasn’t been in trouble with the law, has he? Rookies and sophomores can’t make huge, mega-millions in their playing contracts (there’s a cap) and only a select few get big time ad deals. The basketball players who make REALLY big bucks are, for the most part, well established stars a la Iverson, Carter, Yao, and the like. So what’s that got to do with the draft age?
(Shrug) Just sounds like a generic assertion to me. “Basketball culture” means “black,” whether ya like it or not.
And it’s funny to call hockey players a “rural” group. Most hockey players are from Canada, which is one of the most urbanized countries on the face of the earth. Most Canadian NHLers grew up in or adjacent to major cities.
Aside from the wailing and moaning, is there any evidence young NBA draftees are likely to get into trouble with the law because of getting money at a young age? Toronto’s young star, Chris Bosh, has been a model citizen since they drafted him out of high school. Why should he have been prevented from playing in the NBA?
Maybe to YOU. But I assure you that overall there’s a huge, huge racial element involved here. Baseball players get enormous draft bonuses; some have hauled in eight digits just to sign out of high school or college - and many have huge endorsement deals. Basketball players don’t get that kind of up front bread. Why isn’t anyone talking about jacking up the MLB draft age?
You may in fact not be a racist. Actually, I don’t believe you are. But I wasn’t commenting on you, I was commenting on the media, and I’m saying right out front that the North American sports media has, and has always had, a double standard for black athletes, and that’s why the NBA gets more shit than the NFL, or the NHL, or baseball, for this sort of thing. Because they’re not identified as being “black” sports (although I do think the NFL has a lot of black athletes, IIRC.)
The Tampa Bay Devil Rays’ minor league system is practically a probation officer’s waiting room. (Both white and black players and included in their troubled farm system.) They’ve been as rife with thugs as any sports organization in baseball. One of their prospects is serving time for rape. The Carolina Panthers have has a platoon of accused or convicted criminals. The Atlanta Falcons actually had a guy convicted or murder - oh, and an MLB player was just convicted of murder last week. Forget hockey. Why doesn’t anyone piss and moan about the troubled young NFL or MLB draft picks?
So why raise the draft age? Won’t the leeches wait until the kid’s 20?
And as I pointed out, the NBA does limit the salaries of first-to-third year players. They DON’T GET HUGE BUCKS. (well, relative to the world of pro athletics.) A choice few have major endorsement deals; most do not, and never will have such deals. The top few draft picks are usually stars - not always, though, and once you get past the first 20 picks, it’s a crapshoot.
As I said, Latin American players cannot be drafted by MLB; it’s a free agency system, and historically the problem is they’ve been signing kids as young as 16 (and on a few occasions, 15) and pulling them out of high school as a result. This is not an issue for players subject to the draft (Americans and Canadians) who cannot be drafted before turning 18. I would certainly agree they should not be drafting people who are, legally, children.
And, let’s be honest; the call for MLB to change its amateur acquisition system is about .01% as loud as we’re hearing relative to the NBA.
Could you name an NBA draft pick who lost a multimillion dollar signing bonus to gangsters?
As to losing your fortune to criminals, I’ve got two words for you: Pete Rose. Here’s three more: White baseball player.
Are you actually, seriously telling me that Jeff Kent has gotten more shit than Barry Bonds? You’re just joshing me, right?
How about Chad Curtis? Chad Curtis was a bigoted prick and one of the most enormous fuckwits in all of sports and the media largely ignored it. I remember, though, when Devon White had one little argument with Gene Mauch when he was a young, talented center fielder like Curtis, he suddenly had a reputation for being a prick.
Alan Trammell was regarded as a hard-working role model. His double play partner, Lou Whitaker, a player of virtually equal talent and accomplishments, was often hinted to be a lazy oaf.
How about Larry Bird and Magic Johnson? Bird was always said to be “hard working.” Johnson was, according to anyone involved in basketball, equally as hard working, but was generally regarded by the media as being a naturally gifted athlete. Virtually all white basketball players who succeed are cited as hard workers; black players generally are not, even when, like Johnson, they are. I once actually heard an announcer talk about Allen Iverson’s “athleticism.” Allen Iverson is six feet nothing in his sneakers and isn’t athletic at all by NBA standards.
Sorry, but if we disagree then we disagree, and the double standard is obvious to me.
I think our disagreement has a lot to do with cognitive dissonance more than anything.
You might be more aware of hockey players getting into trouble because you’re Canadian, and hockey is more reported on up there. Few people down here can get hockey info without going out and looking for it.
I’m not sure where you’re getting my opposition to the draft age. The draft age doesn’t mean a thing to me.
Bill Gates dropped out to start Microsoft. Plenty of rock musicians go to school meet their compatriots, and drop out to form the band. I do NOT believe that one is obligated to stay in school for any reason. if you’ve gotten all you can out of school, then you’ve gotten all you can out of school and you should move on. The kid from Ohio State stands to make a better living playing basketball than with a kinesiology degree, so why stop him from getting started? It is my contention that the NCAA and the NBA have their own reasons for jacking up the draft age- the NCAA to maintain the viability of its own product, and the NBA to avoid the publicity that comes with undrafted HS players who, after hearing all about how great they are, sign with an agent and don’t get drafted. I don’t think the NBA cares about those kids, but I do think they care about the publicity.
Two words, baby. Pacman Jones. Two more words. Cincinnati Bengals. Two more. Shawne Merriman. Two more? Ray Lewis. I got words for you in increments of two when it comes to the NFL for as long as you care to listen.
Right now, the NFL is the “thug league.” And the league itself is going NUTS about that. The union (which is the weakest union in sports) is going along, because eventually it will be forced to, and because they have such a lucrative deal that there’s no reason to screw it up. But I will bet dollars to donuts that there will be a three-strikes rule in the NFL in three years or less.
The NFL has a very restrictive draft-age policy, and it’s overrun with thuggery right now. It’s not an age thing and I would never pretend that it IS an age thing.
I’m going to bypass the rest of your argument about draft age- I’m happy to come back to it, but I don’t see that we have a disagreement there- I don’t think a significant part of it is age, I think it’s culture.
It is my contention that the media has a hard-on for stories that will sell. And an NBA story or an NFL story is going to sell more. Your NFL assertion is FAR off the mark, though. The NFL is the big story in thuggery right now.
Furthermore, I think that, if you listed the top 10 incidences of thuggery in each league, the NHL’s or baseball’s would drop off much more quickly in relation to the others.
The NHL had the kid that tried to hire a hitman to kill the coach that molested him, Chris Simon, Marty McSorely, Todd Bertuzzi, the Gretzky/Tocchet gambing scandal, and not much else. On-ice incidents do get some kind of pass (I do give the same pass to the shoving and occasional fisticuffs that break out in basketball, although not as much), and gambling isn’t really thuggish, so much. There was the alarming number of Russian stars who were paying the Russian Mob protection money for their relatives back home, but that’s been addressed or has fallen off the national radar.
Baseball has had… well, not much. Ugueth Urbina, and that’s about it.
The NBA and the NFL get the news coverage because the leagues are more popular and the crimes are more sensational.
Shit in general? No. Shit for being a bad teammate? Oh hell yes. When Kent and Bonds got into a fight a few years back, you couldn’t find ANYBODY taking Kent’s side.
You and I could trade anecdotes all day long. And I don’t disagree that a double-standard might be out there, but that’s not what we’re debating.
Then I’m sorry, but the entire crux of my argument centres around the media’s call for an increase in the NBA draft age. If that’s out, we really don’t have any reason to debate.
My position is that the reason many people are calling for an increase in the NBA’s draft age, but not in the draft age for other sports that draft teenagers out of high school, is that the NBA is identified as a black league. If you don’t care to discuss that issue I guess we aren’t disagreeing at all.
I think that if you can get employment digging ditches, you should be able to get a job dunking a basketball.
For every kid who tries to come out of HS or one year of college and busts, there’s an AI or a Carmelo Anthony or a LeBron James or a Chris Bosh. Even Kwame Brown is getting his act together on the court, and I don’t think he’s been in any trouble off.
My point (aside from the OP) is that thuggery in basketball is cultural and not racial, although there is some overlap.
The NFL has a higher draft age than the NBA already, so that leaves MLB and NHL as the only two major North American sports that draft younger than the NBA. Both of those sports have significant developmental leagues for young players to become seasoned professionals.
Prior to the recent restrictions on draft age, a basketball player could get dumped into the highest level of competition on the planet with prior experience at only the high school level. Not to mention that their bodies are still growing and changing at the age of 18, it’s practically impossible for them to truly compete and grow to their full potential in the NBA. The NBA is a top competitive league, not a developmental league, it’s not setup to teach.
The net of it is that the NBA is the only league with no true minor league. High school doesn’t have good enough competition or coaching to prepare you for the pros. College has only recently been required, and it’s still only a one year requirement. In MLB and NHL, you are drafted early, but get time to improve your skill and mature into a top pro before you get the call. The NFL requires 3 years of college, which makes that level a defacto minor league system.
The NBA does have a minor league called the NBDL . It’s fairly new, but it is a start.
I think everyone here has a valid point, but that many of you are talking past one another. I think the double standard is due to a few things:
Racism/Classism: As this article notes, the analysis of white athletes and black athletes varies greatly. I think it would be silly to deny this.
Many people arguing for the NBA’s age restrictions are doing so to preserve the NCAA viability and credibility.
The cultural and economic reality is that most Black NBA prospects will be far more ill-prepared to deal with the fame and fortune that the NBA provides them than their White counterparts. The media recognizes this, thats why you don’t hear people criticizing “polished” Black athletes from rich families (ie, Kobe Bryant, Grant Hill) as harshly. Consider the difference between the treatment of Mike Tyson and Kobe Bryant during their respective sexual assault trials. Esp. since there was probably less evidence against Mike Tyson, and that his victim was Black. It should also be noted that urban Black culture does not do a good job of preparing youth for integration into White dominated society, and the White dominated society doesn’t readily embrace these people. Where the fault lies is your choice, but I doubt Sidney Crosby will have to deal with the same problems a 7-foot, newly minted teenage millionaire and local basketball god, from any number of US cities will. Many NBA players grew up in an environment where there is an antagonistic relationship between the citizens and the cops, where there is a huge income disparity split along racial lines, and where they are considered their neighborhood and family’s savior. Do you really think they won’t have problems when some team gives them a few million dollars? Do you think they won’t have some issues trying to relate, and live up to the expectations of pro sport’s largely white, upper-middle class fan base? Ther’s no need to ignore reality. The reasons for that reality can be debated, but that’s a more complicated issue.
I would like to point out that Sidney Crosby isn’t building himself a 35,000 sq ft. house, but rather living in the home of Mario Lemieux.
In other words he still has an authority figure in his life. Not only that, but someone who went through the whole rigamarole of being a yung superstar.
