Well and if they’d defined their terms as you have done then it would’ve been no big deal.
The reduction of liberties bit was hyperbole, and I can admit that. My point was that it limits my ability to use that cave.
Basically it makes me sad when someone dying because they did something they knew was dangerous ruins the fun for everyone else. Sure, this is just one cave closing, and it’s insignificant, but how many other things are we not allowed to do because it’s dangerous?
Their value lies in a different demesne. They are often places of unique processes (usually poorly known and seldom studied). In addition, they are frequently areas of highly endemic fauna. IOW, since, in terms of nutrient loading, lack of photosynthetic input, etc., they are relatively low-energy environments. Species tend to adapt to the unique environment of a cave, often to the point that they mutate due to (primarily) genetic drift and speciate. Quite a few species found in caves are endemic to that particular cave, and nowhere else.
As a result, the “consequence” I and other cavers and ecologists attach to caves is that of rarity. They’re exotic. They represent something rare and precious in the biosphere, and are thus worth preserving.
Far too many. Pit the Nanny State, and I’m down to ride, my friend.
That’s interesting.
I wonder whether closing the cave might unintentionally preserve this environment by isolating it from human contact for a temporary period.
It does seem a shame to lose the opportunity for people to study it, though. Great point.
Depends on whether or not the interior life depends upon the opening of the cave to bring the right amount of oxygen in.
(p < .05)
Probably not. Caves “breathe”. Seasonal changes in temperature and air pressure are important to the health of most caves’ ecosystems.
Also, keep in mind that some species use caves, but are not necessarily completely dependent on them (but contribute to the cave’s ecosystem). In particular, in an arid place like Utah, similar humid habitats for, say, troglophilic salamanders, may be few and far between. In return, these species are an important input for organic matter in the cave environment, and thus contribute to the health of the cave in general. We already know that this cave supports fungal life in rat droppings, so we know that troglophilic species do indeed use it, and that other species use the organic matter left behind by the rats. This does not even get into the issue of bats. I don’t know about this particular cave, but bats (and bat guano) often form an enormous link in the food webs of caves. Hell, in Lauderdale County, Alabama, there is a species of cave fish whose entire existence is because of the influence of bat guano. This species has adapted to the enormous amounts of nutrients dropped by hibernating bats, and is an endemic species. The entire species occurs in Key Cave, and no other place in the world. In addition, there are entire species of beetles who live in guano, etc. You get the idea.
The point is that cave life and evolution sometimes take odd, unexpected, exotic turns, and because of this, sometimes produce very unusual ecosystems that are worthy of study, yes, but are also worthy of not being fucked around with, so they can go their own peculiar, fascinating ways. And in the case of caves, very small changes can completely wreck their ecological balance.
Well, the article was pretty vague. For all we know the cave will be sealed with iron bars. I suspect the authorities were just sick of launching rescues.
Yes, qualifiers can transform significance into an objective description, the best example being that of statistical significance. (I see Hunter Hawk has similar thoughts.)
Separately, I opine that the underlying problem is a lack of creativity of mswas’s part. The challenge is to endow emotive import into something without sounding lame or sentimental. That’s a rhetorical problem.
The best approach is to cast aspersions on your opponent’s intelligence or earthiness. So either a) google for a quasirelevant fact (and title your missive Speleology: A Brief Refresher), b) appeal to self-preservation (I don’t know about you, but I value my life pal) or c) paint your opponent as a hippy-dippy/space cadet in contrast with your practicality (yeah and in the broadest possible sense we’re like dust in the wind man, ya know?). As this particular usage of the word “Significant” is largely empty in an objective sense, we’re no longer operating in the realm of fact or analysis anyway.
Measure for Measure Indeed.
You may be right, Measure for Measure, but let me just opine that, unless they have a desire to see this poor schlub’s bones dragged out by rats, dogs, or raccoons (depending on the gap size), I doubt they’ll use iron bars.
I’m sure that’s very important to an enthusiast, and I respect the ecological concerns. But there are other caves, likely in the same area, likely with a similar ecological makeup. And given the amount of damage done to the ecosystem on a daily basis by larger-scale processes… meh.
It doesn’t seem this particular cave is special, as regards size, rare species, or any particular concern other than the fact that it’s got a new permanent inhabitant.
Perhaps the word ‘insignificant’ is not so out of place in that context?
FTR–I think they should leave the cave open.
Enfant Terrible For me it’s more about the pointlessness of the whole thing. Obviously I am not going to cry over a cave that I have never seen, but it just seems pointless. It’s too bad that we have decided that the state must try and bail you out no matter what. Let people die, let their bones be dragged out by Raccoons, whatever, life is 100% fatal. Destroying an area for a mini-mall at least has a purpose. You might not agree with that purpose, but at least it’s a purpose. This is all so that we can save people from themselves, or more specifically save rescue personnel from having to work. It’s too bad we don’t have a society where we can just mark the cave and say, “state rescue personnel will not come get you if you get lost in this cave.”
The word insignificant can be used in this context if you tell us what you’re comparing it to. And demonstrate that you actually know what the eco-system in that cave is like.
But it’s never been completely mapped or explored, so how do you know? And what larger processes in particular?
Nice points, gang. Maybe the cave will be hermetically sealed.
In my opinion, Bat Conservation International should organize a posse of lawyers and question whether boarding up the cave is consistent with the Utah’s Administrative Procedures Act. Googling, I can’t find any reference to Environmental Impact Statement requirements in Utah, unlike California, certain other states and the US government. Bummer IMHO.
Well in Libertania, methinks there would have to be exception for minors. More seriously, I wonder how other countries handle this, including those of the higher, middle and income variety.
Generally speaking, I opine that the Nanny State should indeed require fences around swimming pools: signs are not good enough and due regard should be paid to the temporarily careless: we all have our off days. But I would draw the line differently in this case.
Don’t talk to me of Libertanians, we are at war with them in Libertopia!
But yes, I don’t think that every measure is pointless, but I do think it goes overboard. This is one example of where it does, a cave you have to make some effort to get to.
I’ve been trying to figure out a clever way to work “The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force” into this thread, but I couldn’t.
Here are pictures of gated and sealed caves:
http://www.caves.org/grotto/timpgrotto/caves/nutty_putty_access.html
There’s an interesting presentation of Nutty Putty on that website:
http://jonjasper.com/Presentations/SavingNuttyPuttyCave/
Nutty Putty has a slide as well as a portion that forms a right angle where some cavers can become stuck. Supervision was advised. I am at a loss as to how a body could be removed from such a site, at least in one piece.
The ability to use big words is insignificant compared to the power of the force.
It will be both.
Away team on Asteroid 345delta: Ok, the charges have gone off. We’ve shifted the course significantly.
Mission Control: Significantly? Do you mean we’re saved, or that you’ve changed probability that it will hit Earth?
Away team: Significantly, like, there was a big kaboom!
Mission Control: Yeah, but how much did you shift the trajectory?
Away team: Significantly.
Mission Control: Meaning…?