To have “their hair cut off, their bones broken with batons as they lay under arrest… [be] pissed on and made to sing fascist songs, not allowed to go to the bathroom, eat, sleep, or sit down,” I’m sure.
Listen, if every one, or even a substantial majority, of the 20,000 - 50,000 people who showed up at Quebec City were there to destroy property, there wouldn’t have been a city left at the end of it.
As it was, I got a little jaundiced after CNN showed the same Black Blocer throwing the same brick ten times in ten minutes. (I might add that the Black Bloc attacked the protesters in Genoa.)
And even if the abuses I mentioned above (hair cut off, fascist slogans, pissing on, etc.) were, in some alternate universe, suitable methods of restraint for protesting vandals, I somehow doubt that great pains were taken to discern which ones there was a reason to believe had been violent.
(I note with some pleasure that a recent court case I was involved in in this regard, involving a peaceful protest in Montreal in 2000 that was broken up with cavalry, saw the protesters who were on trial found innocent owing to the fact that the police had broken up the protest without issuing any warning, and had targetted individual protesters for political reasons rather than on the basis of who they believed to have committed crimes.)
Okay, okay. I concede. There appears to be a big hole in my knowledge of ante Christian era Roman government. I had always attributed ancient democracy to Athens and the cradle of modern democracy to the Magna Carta. My gratitude to you for correcting me. I intend to get more thoroughly informed on the matter.:o
Bloody Hell!
Does the European Union (or at least the Italians) have some notion of how marginalizing this will be for the credibility their (relatively) newly founded organization? Here I am thinking that the French could almost have done better. Berlusconi’s attempts to indemnify himself before the fact literally screams for intense scrutiny of every last single thing he does. More and more often I find myself saying the same thing these days:
I’ll have what he’s having.
And yet, and yet. The Italians voted for him. So who’s to blame here? Yes I know he holds all the media cards. That of itself would be enough for anyone with any sense not to vote for him and not to believe anything that his media outlets say about him.
The problem with democracy is that the masses are too stupid to know what is good for them and end up appointing arrogant assholes in power who think the masses are stupid and treat them accordingly. The problem with other non-democratic systems is that you end up with arrogant assholes in power who think the masses are stupid and treat them accordingly.
Berlusconi is clearly a questionable choice of leader, and his row at parliament was the result of some very bad “floor” diplomacy. And yes, he does not enjoy the cleanest reputation, but he’s an Italian politician for goodness sake, what do you expect! Although I agree with the points you and others lay out, coldfire, I must also flag up Truth Seeker’s response.
December brings up something important: the context of the situation. By sheer chance, I happened to be watching live coverage of the EU parliament precisely when this incident happened, and I was fairly shocked to see the treatment Berlusconi received, the treatment that prompted his reaction. Then I was left gaping as Berlusconi launched into his defence. Not all of it was bad, although Berlusconi was clearly upset at the conditions in parliament and at not being afforded the respect and opportunity that is the due of all members, let alone the leader of the current EU presidency. As I recall he dipped into offensive ground a few times, but overall the jist of his speech was “allow me to exercise my freedom and rights as a member and officer of this parliament, and don’t attempt to silence me with your crude anti-democratic methods before I can even say anything”. He spoke for too long and he failed to keep emotional distance (although he did fairly well, speaking jokingly rather than insultingly), and some of his subject matter and references were unfortunate to say the least. He has, in my opinion and without wishing to defend the man’s character, been unfairly demonized over this incident – that is, as far as I remember from watching the live coverage.
I’d love to hear Berlusconi’s words again. If anyone has a link handy (video or text, either preferably in the original Italian) we can examine what he really said and what the context was. My memory of it is less harsh than some of the commentary that has followed since the incident, but I only heard the full thing that one time as it unfolded and my amusement may have affected my concentration.
Yes, Berlusconi is a shady character but when you look at Italian politics that is not very surprising: the main thing you have to remember is the huge scandals that rock the system regularly, along the lines of “tangenti” and so forth. The Italian system is, shall we say, a little different from many others – certainly quite open to charges of corruption throughout many of its levels. Nothing unusual in the Mediterranean though. Heck, not too unusual for politics in general.
He said the “come ti Italy to eat spaghetti and get drunk”. Wow, great way to promote your tourism. What an idiot.
Abe, I agree that Berlusconi got a LOT of protests and cricicism thrown at him on his first day in the EP. But what do you expect? Here’s an elected leader who, after spending weeks inside courtrooms defending himself from charges of fraud (related to a take-over of a firm, which he prevented), decides that in order to not be bothered by these pesky judges anymore, he’s just going to pass a law that states the prime minister enjoys immunity from criminal proscetution from now on.
That’s classicism plain and simple, and the various MEP’s (not only left wing, not only Germans) were damn right in voicing their opinions. Berlusconi’s a man who will stop at nothing to further his causes, and his causes are usually not in the interest of the state of Italy, let alone Europe. He’s a man to watch out for, not one to welcome with open arms - he blew the chance at such credibility a long, long time ago.
And yeah, Stefani is just feeding the flames. State secretary for tourism insults 10 million tourists. What a fucking madhouse. Oh well, what could one expect from these narrow-minded Northern League fucks? Their main agenda is to split Italy up in a Northern and Southern part, ferchrissakes (the logic being that the rich North shouldn’t support the poor South). It’s a surprise they don’t want to stop every foreigner at the border at all. And for a xenophobic asshole like Stefani to accuse Germans of “hyper-nationalist pride” is just beyond the fucking pale.
Italy has a pretty pathetic political record, post-WWII. But this bunch of fucking losers takes the cake.
From the same link:
No question at all about Berlusconi and Lega Nord. These people have always worried me, and I mean always (Berlusconi’s takeover of Italian media was a terrifying sight to behold as it unfolded over the past decades, decades in which Italy actually made other strides in fighting corruption). I was completely stupefied by Berlusconi’s eventual political clout, and the fact that he somehow managed to hang on to it.
I do wonder if this row is exaggerated though. That’s why I asked if anyone had links to the original material. My recollection is that both Berlusconi and his hecklers behaved in very unacceptable manner, but Berlusconi’s performance wasn’t quite as bad as to merit some of the outrage I’ve seen generated by the incident.
They’ll be having a fucking food fight next.
Well, I’d rather be armed with sausages than with tortellini, should it come to that! 
By the way, yojimbo, there’s this movie producer in Holland who’s making a film about the history of the IRA. I’m going to recommend you for the part of Evil Child Killing Car Bomb Terrorist. I’m sure you’d fill it out perfectly!
[sub]All right, now insult me by alluding to the Dutch history of slave trading and apartheid.[/sub]
And that is really saying something.
And all things Orange. Gawd bless King Billy and all that.
Now excuse me while I go check on my stash of Semtex.
Ah, what a blessing the Dutch have been to the world, eh? Screw the Romans, we brought true civilisation. 