What a pathetic ass. It is bad enough that he’s Italy’s answer to Conrad Black. It’s bad enough that he formed a coalition with Fascists (note: not just “fascists”, but actual Fascists). It’s bad enough that Italian and other European citizens were subjected to actual torture and wanton brutality in Genoa.
But now this twit, this yoyo, this putz has to shoot his mouth off about the high and mighty West and how we should conquer everyone and drag them kicking and screaming into our way of life. And don’t even get me started on that globalization thing.
Let me say it very clearly: Silvio Berlusconi, tu sai uno dei più grandi cazzi del mondo. Va a fare in culo!
Since the Islamic religion as practiced today seems to include vicious anti-Semitism, but Western Civilation does not, I would say that WC is morally superior to Islam.
Um, what? It was my understanding that Islam was very open to Judaism. During the Dark Ages and Middle Ages, there were thriving communities of Jewish scholars all over the Arabic world.
I’m not an expert in Islam. I have read that the Taliban believe in killing Jews, just as the Nazis did. I have been told that there are various restrictions in some other Arab countries. Granted, it’s hard to distinguish between anti-Semitism and anti-Israel.
England has had a Jewish PM. The US had a Jewish candidate for VP and numerous political and business leaders. I’m not aware of any Islamic country in which a Jew has achieved prominence, but FAIK there might be some. Consider yourself invited to point them out.
Perhaps it was impolitic of him to say so, but Berlusconi has a point that the Western pluralist culture is superior to that of Islam. Let’s examine Canada and Saudi Arabia.
Canada is a representative democacy.
Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy.
Canada practices religious toleration.
Saudi Arabia punishes the practice of any religion besides Islam.
Canada has freedom of the press and freedom of speech.
Saudi Arabia has religious censorship and lese majeste laws. (Sorry, I don’t know the ASCII codes for accented vowels.)
Canadian women have equal protection under the law.
Saudi women cannot vote, drive cars, or leave the house unveiled, and can be beaten by the religious police for violations.
Canada has the world’s best beer.
Saudi Arabia bans all alcohol.
Advantage: Canada
Does the West always get it right? Well, no. There was the Holocaust half a century ago, but that was an aberration in a culture that has been growing more tolerant of diversity as the Islamic world has conversely become more intolerant.
Consider yourself invited to read the Ask the Muslim Guy thread december. You may find that characterising a very large group of people by the actions or opinions of a few is unhelpful. Having read this thread, you may then consider yourself “not an expert in Islam”.
What Berlusconi has done is something that the US government has been at pains to avoid both for moral and practical reasons. This is not about religion. It is about bastards who think their religion and culture is superior and who are prepared to kill masses of people because of it. They will be delighted at Berlusconi’s comments. It will play very well in their quest for recruits. He is a maggot.
[added in preview: Gobear - the important word in your first sentence is pluralist.
Exactly. Despite the incidents of anti-Muslim vandalism and violnece, there has been a much larger show of support for the uslim minority in the US. If Christian terrorists had blown up the Saudi or Pakistani counterpart to the WTC and Pentagon and killed thousands of their people, what would happen to any Christians or Westerners in their nations?
Well, in respect to the British, German, and Irish posters, I will amend my statement to
Canada has some of the world’s best mass-produced beer.
Sorry, fellow Americans, we have some awesome microbrews, but our major beers like Bud, Miller, and Coors, blow like Madonna in the NBA All-Stars locker room. Ozzies, I’ve only had Foster’s, which I hope is not representative of your nation’s beer. My apologies for my uneducated palate.
Besides having some decent mass produced beers we also are fortunate to have a plethora of micro breweries that make some outstanding products.
The reason someone like gobear would say we make the best beer is because many people have been saying that for a long time.
Besides our own I am not above slipping down to the pub to put back a pint of Guiness from time to time. It’s all a matter of personal tastes really.
Now, back to our regularly scheduled OP…
Silvio Berlusconi, you ignorant fucking slut! [slap] You’re just what we don’t need.
december - Go have a little chat with the Muslim Guy. Before one criticizes Islam one should have a basic understanding of the religion and it’s history.
Mind, I’m not saying that the Muslim world is the same all over. You can get beer in Malaysia and Indonesia. In addition, in the Qu’ran itself, there is no reason why there could not be a democratic nation run on Islamic principles. The Prophet stressed the equality of all believers under Islam, and the Arabs themselves had an anti-monarchical tradition. So I’m not saying we should wipe out Islam or make everyone on the planet eat McDonald’s burgers (I won’t touch them myself)
But, if I were God for a few hours,
I would destroy every dictator on the planet and teach each nation that sovreignty rests in the people and the government should only have the rights granted by the governed.
I would stress the equality of women under the law. Unlike early 20th century reformers, who tried modernize their countries by banning traditional dress, Iwould just say that it’s not mandatory. You can wear hijab, or not.
I would tell people that it’s not nice to order death sentences on authors who write books that they feel impugn their religion. You are free not to buy the book, but you have to tolerate speech you don’t like.
Religion and the state must be two separate entities. This means that the state can’t declare Islam to be the only legal religion and can’t discriminate against non-believers. The declarations of mullahs cannot be enforced by the state.
december has already been smacked down for this opinion, but with a little modification, (s)he might be onto something:
“Islamic religion as practiced today by the people in power in some Muslim countries seems to include vicious anti-Semitism…”
I would have a hard time disagreeing with this statement. It is very unfortunate for Muslims everywhere that they get tarred with the same brush as fanatics like the Taliban, but the fact remains that fanatics are doing very bad things in the name of Islam.
There is vicious anti-semitism preached and practiced by numerous Christian sects throughout the world (including the western world). Ever hear of the KKK? Ever hear of the Nazis? I’m not sure if there’s ever been a study of which religion (Christianity or Islam) has more anti-semitic followers, but there are many in both religions.
Pakistan has actually had a female premier. The United States has not. In fact, any woman in the U.S. who seems to be making progress towards becoming President gets shot down by the general population as well as the media. Just take a look at how Hillary Clinton is being treated these days.
I say: let’s fix ourselves up before we start fixing up the rest of the world, shall we?
If this story is true and if the rumors are commonly believed, it doesn’t reflect well on the intelligence or decency of the man in the street in Pakistan.
Yes, but how many major female candidates have run for the presidency?
**
Oh I get it, you used this process:
Or in your (rephrased) statement:
Hillary Clinton is a woman with presidental aspirations, and she isn’t universally liked for said ambitions. Therefore the reason she isn’t liked is because she’s a woman!
Well, to play devil’s advocate (in this case a little too literally), people can only choose to believe what’s fed to them by the media. Even here in the US, we can only learn about what really happened from the few media sources that are available. If these were corrupt (and many people believe that they are), then we are all just being spoon-fed propaganda, and fictional news.
The fact of the matter is: people believe what they want to believe. How many people in the US believed the news story 2 days after the attacks that said that a whole flight crew with forged licenses attempted another hijack at Kennedy Airport? This wasn’t true, but it didn’t stop people from blaming more innocent Moslems for it.
But you should criticize the decency and intelligence of the man in the street in Pakistan. After all, he is doing the same to you.
OK, how do I put this? In my lifetime, the US has had 7 presidents. Now, what do they seem to have in common? They all seem to be the same color, and they all seem to be of the same religion.
Now I look to Pakistan and then India (who happen to be enemies). And they’ve both had female leaders. These backwards non-Christian countries have had female leaders! Make all the excuses you want, slick. They still beat us to a plateau that doesn’t look like we’ll reach for a while.
You and I know that news can be spun to reflect ideology; for example, Fox News is well-known to be a hard right-wing news group, so I have to question what they say until it is backed up by other sources.
The people in Pakistan, generally, are less educated and less sophisticated than we are, so they will believe what they are told more than we will. It serves the interests of the kleptocrats in charge in Pakistan to have the people blame the Jews or the Americans for Pakistan’s woes than to realize that the nation’s economic problems are the fault of venal and corrupt leaders.
It takes an amazing credulity to believe that no Jews were killed in the WTC and that the air crashes were engineered by the Mossad and/or the CIA.
It was my understanding that Islam was very open to Judaism. During the Dark Ages and Middle Ages, there were thriving communities of Jewish scholars all over the Arabic world.